What will help the sport of skiing grow?

[tromano]

When I was a kid I went skiing once a year with my Boy Scout troop. In college I went on a weeklong ski trip to Quebec and in my head never really went back to D.C. Of the few hundred Maryland based people that I went to school with that I keep up with in Facebook, the only ones who relocated to ski country are me and a handful of Mormon kids who live down near byu. There are literally hundreds of millions of people who will never try skiing because it's just not available anywhere nearby enough to be a practical option and there is literally no story in the community that tells them to seek that out. Even if they do seek it out in the places near by the story is the skiing here sucks and isn't even real skiing. You need to go out west to ski for real or whatever.

Climbing gyms didn't exist when I was a kid either. I think the solutuon is actually very simple to getting these people into skiing, the problem is that people think that skiing is a mountain sport and don't want to reinvent it in an indoor sports context. Maybe no one wants to move from CO to ATL or DC sell skiing to people 200 miles from anything that could be remotely called a mountain.

 

[Seldomski]

There are so many things that can go wrong in skiing that can dissuade a newbie from skiing beyond the $$.

-Boots. Poor fitting boots can cause intense pain, and if your feet are somewhat unusual, it is unlikely for a rental boot to be remotely comfortable. A random pair of rental skis on the other hand seem to be generally good enough. Walking in boots is pretty terrible also.
-Weather. Wind, whiteouts, cancelled flights, impassable highways, etc
-Clothing. It's very easy to wear the wrong stuff and wind up uncomfortably cold by either under or over dressing. Managing all of the clothes plus boots, skis, poles is difficult for a newbie.
-Altitude. Acclimation can be worse on some. It makes sleeping difficult and the newbie may be tempted to just sleep in and miss the lesson - especially if the person is out of shape to begin with. I've been on several trips where this happened.
-Other skiers. High lesson prices dissuade people from taking lessons. Result is out of control skiers with friends giving 'tips'
-Crowds. The most likely time for a newbie to try skiing is probably a holiday weekend. Ouch. Veterans know when to ski and where to go to avoid crowds on the hill.

So it takes a special breed or some other external motivator (family tradition, S.O. or friend is a skier, desire for status) to keep skiing past the initial experience. It's likely 1 or more things in the list above are disastrous on the first trip.

So, I think the way to grow skiing really depends on the current participants. It is upon us to find people who think would enjoy it and bring them on trips. Help them navigate the myriad of issues to get newbies on the slopes and having fun. You will have to sacrifice some of your own vacation time to shepherd the newbies through the hoops the ski schools leave out. Maybe even pony up the $$ to get them that beginner lesson package if they want to cheap out.

I didn't get into skiing by randomly showing up on the mountain one day because of an advertisement. I had family and friends engaged in the sport and loving it, and I wanted to be part of that experience.

 

[fatbob]

My daughter would never go alone. My son would ski alone if he were close (ie, he used to go up for the afternoon at Purg when he lived in Durango), but he definitely wouldn't be doing the I-70 slog w/o a crew.

Hazard of having a childhood exposed to an (almost) unlimited amount of an activity. That would never be me because skiing was so rare and special but I was kinda burnt out on rugby by the time I got to college and in fact rowed instead first year. In fact even now I regret not playing rugby longer when I was in my late 20s - would have ruined my ski bum plans though if instead of regularly bunking off for ski weekends I had to show for Vets matches. Guess that's the advantage of playing rugby in Vail and Aspen - minimal clash with ski season.

 

[fatbob]

I
BTW, ski bumming is a lost art, IMO. Let's not get into that. HaHa. Whenever somebody hears where our kids live, and assumes they are living life as 1970's ski bums, I want to punch them.

Great post but I was fascinated by this as a thread in itself - Is this because the ski-bum priced out of a life that combines skiing and real life these days near any ski hill worth the trouble?

I've always been jealous of friends and acquaintances who work as programmers or other IT/tech who've frequently been able to pack up, rent an appartment in the Alps and take off for the season to work remotely, flying back in for the odd essential face to face. Same for docs and nurses who've managed to score exchanges to Canada etc fairly easily. And some convert to that life entirely.

I do think skiing will lose some of its soul in the US if the only way you can be a "character" ski bum and "known about the hill" is to have made bank early and then quasi retired to the place. It's one of Aspen's endearing features that there are still enough of the old skool guys around to feel real. Not that I haven't had chairlift chats with folk in say Vail or Chamonix that were clearly very HNWI but modest and unassuming and importantly real skiers too.

 

[Goose]

That ties into all the comments in this thread saying that urban centers need their own feeder hill to really make progress with cheap hourly ticket options. If the indoor ski area at Meadowlands ever opens by NYC, we could really see if that model is popular and/or successful.
.

problem imho is that this hill which is within a stones throw of the big apple is a poor example.

Firstly.... is some 250 yrd single run indoor ski hill which may cost $30 per head for a 2 hr window going to really build the sport? Perhaps in some other demographic but not NYC imo.

What youll end up with there are is an over crowded bunch of misbehaving, disrespectful , self serving, teens and/or 20 somethings who couldn't really give two craps about honestly learning skiing but just want to go for the trip out of the city (or nearby) for joy ride of the moment. And while there will display lack of common courtesy, respect, and etiquettes. Sorry but just the way things are around here and makes me sick.

Should we really think some parent/s with small kids are going to get something good from this with some over crowded rinky dink indoor ski hill while having to deal with the above mentioned morons, spend $120 for time, plus gas, tolls,equipment, parking cost as well as fight for parking, lunch somewhere at some point, all the time involved etc etc. Remember one still needs to take on most the daunting task that a first time ski family must endure. except they are going to do this for a couple hours in a situation they may only get to even go down some indoor ramp a few times at most? And deal with all the ugliness about it I mention above? I just don't see this as being anything real pleasant and nice thing to do nor worthwhile. At least not here in the big city. Maybe perhaps in some other places. In fact it might end up even being a turn off for some folks who may otherwise really liking the idea to try skiing. The experience here might represent almost nothing at all resembling a real ski trip except for the fact you can get on a chair to then glide down the bump.

Id also bet my left arm this thing gets closed down soon as the first idiot does something stupid in there somewhere somehow and either hurts himself or someone else and the place gets sued. Or some fight breaks out. I'm sorry to be so negative but honestly it makes me bitter that most things around the big city that seem nice and are suppose to be pleasant are ruined and/or never end up as nice as what was anticipated. Heck, I went to Mountain creek (closest resort to NYC) two seasons ago and was the first time in about 25 years I been there. I then remembered exactly why I havnt been there in 25 years. Being much too close to the big city its a freaking over crowded zoo with huge lift lines (for a tiny hill) over super crowded slopes with city snow boarders flying everywhere without any control as well as similar skiers , and filled with too many rude, and disrespectful ,selfish loudmouth morons. I don't know how any the respectful families there even enjoy themselves or feel wonderful about being there. My rant is over...lol but back to that meadowlands indoor ski bump? Imo that's not building anything towards upping the sport and probably (in this area) not going to be a pleasant thing to do imo if it even ever opens. That's been going on for many years (probably a decade now) and keeps stalling. I don't even know where it stands right now.

 

[Brian Finch]

The demise was foretold in Curtis W Casewitt's book "Ski Racing - advice by the experts"

Far far too much of skiing is being quantified. Sorry I'm not buying the time / money / millennial argument.

Skiing has been boiled down to " I'm not going until the conditions are perfect and I have the perfect ski and I know that I will have the perfect time.....".

I know far too many people who are never pleasantly surprised because they're constantly searching their phone for the right snow conditions, crowds and lift reports.

At the same time I see far too many resorts failing to offering fun experiences that focus on ski culture.

 

[Brian Finch]

This is what gets people on the hill- always had, always will.

 

[LKLA]

View attachment 31491 View attachment 31492

This is what gets people on the hill- always had, always will.

And boy does it get them down the hill

 

[Muleski]

I was going to mention that one of the issues for the smaller areas is that people who ski elsewhere get "spoiled." Perfect snow, perfect grooming, fancy new comfy high speed chairs.......you get the picture. The opposite of old, comfy, lived-in and "soul."

The people who spend almost all of their ski time with friends and family at smaller, often older ski areas just seem to appreciate them. They're thankful to be out and having fun. Not a single perfect expectation, and it is great!

There are some real gems in the state of Maine. Big Rock, Quoggy Jo, Titcomb, Black, Mt. Abram. even smallish Shawnee Peak has a lot of "old" and character to it. And great beer league, high school and middle school ski racing.

 

[Monique]

That's when they will likely gravitate to the major resorts. Sure the small mom-and-pop resort would prefer they stay and spend money there, but they'd have better luck serving new beginners who don't need that bigger. more adventurous terrain.

And when they have kids, they head back to mom and pop place again ... I see it with Eldora.

-Boots. Poor fitting boots can cause intense pain, and if your feet are somewhat unusual, it is unlikely for a rental boot to be remotely comfortable. A random pair of rental skis on the other hand seem to be generally good enough. Walking in boots is pretty terrible also.

I think the key here is to start as a teen if you don't have the good fortune to have parents who are skiers. As a teen, I suffered through some awful boots. I would never do that now. Would definitely quit.

 

[TonyC]

Here's a more informative demographic chart:

It's from 2009 and getting slowly out of date but still useful. The dark black line of number of ski days per age shows the teenage and middle age+ ranges exceeding the raising family years as has been discussed in this thread. But the total number of ski days per age reflects mainly underlying American demographics, with Boomer and Millennial Peaks and a clear Gen X dip between them.

Those lines also seem to reflect regional snowfall for those years..

Yes, the Sierra drought of 2012-15 stands out like a sore thumb and note 2016 returns to the prior baseline level. The Northeast has big dips in the bad 2012 and 2016 seasons.

The concern is: the average age is getting older.
If we don't get youth interested, when the old people skiing with old people start dying off, it will be a ski slope with no people.

In another thread I noted that the average age has flattened for 3 years now. Look at the precipitous decline in that graph after age 50. We are now 8 years later and well over half of the Boomer skier visits are surely gone already, despite what it feels like socially among us fanatics here on PugSki.

think to understand this problem with more accuracy we need much more granular data: where are skier visits decreasing generation over generation? Regions, types of hills? Is it day trippers decreasing or family vacations?

The new entrants come from the teenage years. So US skier visits soared like a rocket when the Boomers were those years in the 1960's and 1970's. The 80's and 90's were flat in the 50 million range per Kottke reports when the much smaller Gen X were the new entrants. Then we had a slow rise in 2000's with the Millennials. This decade looks flat again with another smaller generation, this time with demographics less favorable to skiing.

Look at visitor numbers for Las Vegas - numbers have gone from around 30 million visitors to over 40 million in the last 20 years.

Look at national parks visitor data. A recent New York Times article stated - "The number of park visitors has reached an unprecedented level", "In 2016, the National Park Service tracked a record 331 million visits, and after a busy summer, the system is likely to surpass that number this year", "Zion is among the most visited parks. In 2016, about 4.3 million people visited, up 60 percent from a decade ago."

One has to think that 99% of visitors are not walking to Las Vegas or the Grand Canyon In both cases we are talking about remote destinations, yet numbers are up, way up.

Not surprising since overall US population rose 35% from 1980-2010. Meanwhile skier visits rose 5%. I like the National Park analogy. These places are every bit as remote as ski areas. Yellowstone was mobbed this summer, and not just for eclipse week I was told by employees there.

Many of the observations in this thread are on the mark. But the ski areas doing most of the business don't see some big crisis because the absolute numbers aren't down. Growth in total population is offsetting the decline in percentage participation in skiing so far. The Millennials are unquestionably the dominant generation in skier visits now.

 

[fatbob]

I'm not sure National Parks are a great analogue - the more well known are almost a right of passage for middle class American families and for many international visitors they are THE reason to take a summer driving holiday in the US. And the demographics are changing - lots of Indian American and Chinese American families around Moab last couple of times when I visited.

 

[Bill Talbot]

I was going to mention that one of the issues for the smaller areas is that people who ski elsewhere get "spoiled." Perfect snow, perfect grooming, fancy new comfy high speed chairs.......you get the picture. The opposite of old, comfy, lived-in and "soul."

The people who spend almost all of their ski time with friends and family at smaller, often older ski areas just seem to appreciate them. They're thankful to be out and having fun. Not a single perfect expectation, and it is great!

There are some real gems in the state of Maine. Big Rock, Quoggy Jo, Titcomb, Black, Mt. Abram. even smallish Shawnee Peak has a lot of "old" and character to it. And great beer league, high school and middle school ski racing.

It's still New England no matter where you ski...perfection is a seldom seen event here

 

[Tricia]

It's from 2009 and getting slowly out of date but still useful.

8 years old
We were all in much different place 8 years ago.

 

[Monique]

And the demographics are changing - lots of Indian American and Chinese American families around Moab last couple of times when I visited.

Curious whether/how this point relates. Certainly there's almost no representation of brown people in the ski industry and advertising, and that's a failure. (Actually can't think of a single one. )

 

[tromano]

What youll end up with there are is an over crowded bunch of misbehaving, disrespectful , self serving, teens and/or 20 somethings who couldn't really give two craps about honestly learning skiing but just want to go for the trip out of the city (or nearby) for joy ride of the moment. And while there will display lack of common courtesy, respect, and etiquettes. Sorry but just the way things are around here and makes me sick.

Should we really think some parent/s with small kids are going to get something good from this with some over crowded rinky dink indoor ski hill while having to deal with the above mentioned morons, spend $120 for time, plus gas, tolls,equipment, parking cost as well as fight for parking, lunch somewhere at some point, all the time involved etc etc. Remember one still needs to take on most the daunting task that a first time ski family must endure. except they are going to do this for a couple hours in a situation they may only get to even go down some indoor ramp a few times at most? And deal with all the ugliness about it I mention above? I just don't see this as being anything real pleasant and nice thing to do nor worthwhile. At least not here in the big city. Maybe perhaps in some other places. In fact it might end up even being a turn off for some folks who may otherwise really liking the idea to try skiing. The experience here might represent almost nothing at all resembling a real ski trip except for the fact you can get on a chair to then glide down the bump.

Id also bet my left arm this thing gets closed down soon as the first idiot does something stupid in there somewhere somehow and either hurts himself or someone else and the place gets sued. Or some fight breaks out. I'm sorry to be so negative but honestly it makes me bitter that most things around the big city that seem nice and are suppose to be pleasant are ruined and/or never end up as nice as what was anticipated. Heck, I went to Mountain creek (closest resort to NYC) two seasons ago and was the first time in about 25 years I been there. I then remembered exactly why I havnt been there in 25 years. Being much too close to the big city its a freaking over crowded zoo with huge lift lines (for a tiny hill) over super crowded slopes with city snow boarders flying everywhere without any control as well as similar skiers , and filled with too many rude, and disrespectful ,selfish loudmouth morons. I don't know how any the respectful families there even enjoy themselves or feel wonderful about being there. My rant is over...lol but back to that meadowlands indoor ski bump.

Getting out of the city to enjoy the joy ride of the moment. This sounds like a nearly ideal short term outcome to help meet the goal is sharing the sport with a younger generation. There will be plenty of young selfish loudmouth morons; the more the better. And that's the demographic needed to save skiing long term. If respectful families felt comfortable there it would be a failure.

 

[tromano]

I'm not sure National Parks are a great analogue - the more well known are almost a right of passage for middle class American families and for many international visitors they are THE reason to take a summer driving holiday in the US. And the demographics are changing - lots of Indian American and Chinese American families around Moab last couple of times when I visited.

The driving trip to see the national parks is a story that most immigrant families learn quickly. The stories about skiing are not shared with them. Having completed a big national park tour these families are crossing that off the bucket list, it's not intuitive for that person to say let's comeback to jackson next winter for skiing.

 

[TonyC]

My point about the national parks was to reinforce what's being said here. These are as remote as ski areas but visitation is rising in lockstep with the overall USA population increase. Meanwhile ski area visitation is nearly flat due to the more difficult barriers to entry.

Curious whether/how this point relates. Certainly there's almost no representation of brown people in the ski industry and advertising, and that's a failure. (Actually can't think of a single one. )

For cultures originating in tropical areas (Hispanics, Indian Americans), I think a cold weather sport is going to be an uphill battle to generate interest. This has to be a factor in the SoCal market. Mammoth's record seasons in 2005 and 2006 are at essentially the same level as the prior records from 1982 and 1986. Recent big years in 2011 and likely 2017 are below those records. If I were marketing in this region, I'd target Chinese and Korean Americans, who may have more familiarity with cold weather. SoCal's ethnic diversity is much more in evidence at the Big Bear and Mt. High daytrip areas.

 

[Goose]

Getting out of the city to enjoy the joy ride of the moment. This sounds like a nearly ideal short term outcome to help meet the goal is sharing the sport with a younger generation. There will be plenty of young selfish loudmouth morons; the more the better. And that's the demographic needed to save skiing long term. If respectful families felt comfortable there it would be a failure.

really? I don't get it.
Firstly....part of what I mentioned was that (as for those morons and their afternoon joy ride) they are not really going to care about really learning to ski nor stay in the sport long term. But what it will do is act as a deterrent to those (respectful families) who might otherwise have a genuine interest. I disagree with you. I think its the families the sport needs most. Skiing has imo always been a family recreation. Perhaps different when one lives in a local ski town. But as for the general masses most don't live in such places. The recreation imo is much more about family trips. Weather day trips or overnighters , weekenders or even some extended multiple day vacation. Its been more tradition within families imo than it ever was individual participation. I grew up in a family that skied and any friends I had who also skied so was their family skiers.

I'm not saying teens and 20somethings wouldn't also be a positive to grow the sport. But not the type I was referring to in my post. Selfish, disrespectful, loudmouth morons who lack common courtesy is not at all imo the demographic the sport needs. I think your wrong about that. I think that stuff will turn away people. With all the hurtles that would be new skiers and families of would be skiers have to be willing to accept and overcome in order to participate and also stay with the sport, the last thing we want imo is to create an unpleasant experience via a poorly behaved demographic on top of everything else. It would be a deterrent not an asset..

 

[Fishbowl]

This is what gets people on the hill- always had, always will.

I don't understand the reference? And if I don't, then I'm sure many others don't either, conforming the disconnect between those in the ski industry and those we are trying to interest in the sport.