What will help the sport of skiing grow?

[noncrazycanuck]

personally that Snozone skiing would have held my attention for maybe 2 runs even if it had been my first time on skis.
perhaps is more of a event to be there than the skiing and that's the attraction.
back to my theory, the need to make the sport sexy again.
I don't mean every day is bikini skiing but it needs to develop a bit more glamour factor to get new people willing to try the sport.
True passion always takes awhile.

 

[RuleMiHa]

The first time I was on a horse, I got on and a trainer walked me around the ring and I loved it. The first time I went Scuba Diving the instructor suited me up and took me down and held my hand, and I loved it. The first time I went sailing I got on someone else boat and it was an outstanding experience. The first time I went skiing I fell on my a** a bajillion times was confused about where I was supposed to be and what I was supposed to do and was miserable. I stuck with it because I was signed up for a ski school program that ran 10 weeks and my friends (and the cool kids) all were in the same program.

When we talk about barriers to entry I feel like one of them is that there is no simple easy introduction that really shows people what it feels like to enjoy skiing so no matter how cheap or easy you make it the time it takes to get to the point of enjoyment is so long (for non kamakaze types) that it is a battle we'll never win.

 

[Monique]

The first time I was on a horse, I got on and a trainer walked me around the ring and I loved it. The first time I went Scuba Diving the instructor suited me up and took me down and held my hand, and I loved it. The first time I went sailing I got on someone else boat and it was an outstanding experience. The first time I went skiing I fell on my a** a bajillion times was confused about where I was supposed to be and what I was supposed to do and was miserable. I stuck with it because I was signed up for a ski school program that ran 10 weeks and my friends (and the cool kids) all were in the same program.

When we talk about barriers to entry I feel like one of them is that there is no simple easy introduction that really shows people what it feels like to enjoy skiing so no matter how cheap or easy you make it the time it takes to get to the point of enjoyment is so long (for non kamakaze types) that it is a battle we'll never win.

Well, yeah, but you fall on your ass a billion times learning to a ride a bike, right? Still, most people do learn.

 

[Goose]

The first time I was on a horse, I got on and a trainer walked me around the ring and I loved it. The first time I went Scuba Diving the instructor suited me up and took me down and held my hand, and I loved it. The first time I went sailing I got on someone else boat and it was an outstanding experience. The first time I went skiing I fell on my a** a bajillion times was confused about where I was supposed to be and what I was supposed to do and was miserable. I stuck with it because I was signed up for a ski school program that ran 10 weeks and my friends (and the cool kids) all were in the same program.

When we talk about barriers to entry I feel like one of them is that there is no simple easy introduction that really shows people what it feels like to enjoy skiing so no matter how cheap or easy you make it the time it takes to get to the point of enjoyment is so long (for non kamakaze types) that it is a battle we'll never win.

personally that Snozone skiing would have held my attention for maybe 2 runs even if it had been my first time on skis.
perhaps is more of a event to be there than the skiing and that's the attraction.
back to my theory, the need to make the sport sexy again.
I don't mean every day is bikini skiing but it needs to develop a bit more glamour factor to get new people willing to try the sport.
True passion always takes awhile.

Both above quotes imo make some good points. The indoor ski imo too, may simply be more just an attraction for something to do for most people than it would ever be a way of getting more people in the sport. The greater percentage would imo simply treat it as an event with no real interest in becoming the latest population of avid skiers. There may also be a small percentage who are interested in becoming skiers who might go to an indoor place but not imo at all most. This imo is more like a trip to an amusement park, or some event, or attraction where as there are no commitments nor even any real interest in any long term involvement and dedication but only to entertain for the moment with no strings attached.That is sort of what I was referring to when I felt that the one which may open at NYC would be a relatively unpleasant disaster simply filled with an overcrowded bunch of disrespectful and inconsiderate 20somethings looking for the joy or the attraction of the moment with no true desire nor interest in becoming avid long term skiers.

Another thing to point out imo relates to simply being adventurous (or not). Honestly, most people and/or families are not adventurous. I don't mean sky diving adventurous but simply mean doers of some more adventurous activities and things other than lying on a beach. For most, the idea of what to do with free time becomes about relaxation, and not adventure. Much like "RuleMiha" states his experiences doing several different adventurous things, most people do not want to nor have much desire to do these things. Skiing is one of them. Most families would never consider things like ...camping, rafting, boating, hiking, exploring, scuba, horseback riding, etc, etc, etc....and when they do venture a tad they may do the most boring tamed down version of that stuff where as there is no real sense of those true recreations anyway.

Heck, even when on vacation people just don't take advantage of most the offered adventurous things. Some of it has to do with expense but most has to do with simply not enough interest in doing anything that requires some sort of efforts and unknowns. My wife is like this and most her family is the same. My family on the other hand was always looking for the things we can do. But honestly that's not most families, that imo is the much smaller percentage of families. Collectively its tons of people but still is only a small percentage of the population. My wife only became appreciative of more things because of me and my side of our families. My kids (again because of me) have always preferred going places with extended family on my side vs extended family on my wife's side only due more fun and adventure on my side..lol. With that said, most people just simply don't really think of doing adventurous things. Skiing is one of them. It requires work and commitment. That's just simply not most people's idea of what to do with free time. Imo its kind of sad because people miss out on a whole other world when they are (for lack of a better term) somewhat boring and uninterested. But it is what it is.

 

[fatbob]

I spent 4 hrs in a dome on Saturday night testing 8 pairs of skis in total from a vast selection starting at 93mm Enforcers (grim) to some massive pivoty drifty PFD Powder skis (pretty fun). Conditions were well and truly variable from grey ice to deep unconsolidated sugar. So you can do stuff. Kids were certainly having fun zooming down and launching off the bumps.

It only needs to be good enough experience to trigger an adrenalin response or on the other end "you know what I think I'll be able to learn to do this" to start to develop new skiers.

 

[RuleMiHa]

Well, yeah, but you fall on your ass a billion times learning to a ride a bike, right? Still, most people do learn.

Yes but, first I had the Big Wheel and then I had a tricycle, and then I had a bike with training wheels. So by the time I made it to the bicycle without training wheels I was very familiar with the advantages of tooling around the neighborhood unfettered and willing to put up with the pain of falling because I knew the value of the reward. I worry that it takes too long to figure out the value of the reward when it comes to skiing unless you have other strong reasons to pursue it.

Kids are much more open to learning because they're much more willing to perform poorly at an activity (except teenagers in front of the opposite sex). Adults (IMHO) tend to quit things they're bad at unless they have a strong enough incentive to power past the difficult, painful, or embarrassing times.

I think some of the prior posts focus on different kinds of incentives that have worked in the past, that have enough juice to compel people to push through the difficult times. That's why making the sport "sexy" again might work, or why images of fun mountain culture used to work. But in the day and age of immediate gratification, short attention spans, and burgeoning options, is there some kind of experience that skiing can develop that would allow sane rational people to figure out that it was something they would enjoy learning to do? I figure adrenaline junkies just need to strap on skis and will get hooked but non AJ folks enjoy skiing as well, what could be developed for them.

 

[TonyC]

When we talk about barriers to entry I feel like one of them is that there is no simple easy introduction that really shows people what it feels like to enjoy skiing so no matter how cheap or easy you make it the time it takes to get to the point of enjoyment is so long (for non kamakaze types) that it is a battle we'll never win.

As one whose natural ability at sports as a kid was poor, I strongly disagree with this. The learning curves for golf and tennis, often cited as lifetime sports, are far more difficult.

The first time I was on a horse, I got on and a trainer walked me around the ring and I loved it. The first time I went Scuba Diving the instructor suited me up and took me down and held my hand, and I loved it. The first time I went sailing I got on someone else boat and it was an outstanding experience.

I knew I liked skiing enough to persist despite blowing out an ACL on my second day.

I'm with most of the posters here in citing cost/convenience as the key barriers to entry. If I lived in the Southeast the odds I would have even tried much less pursued skiing would have been very low. Even in SoCal our climate/lifestyle makes skiing out of sight/out of mind to most people and my first try was somewhat of a fluke.

We have a poll here about the age people began skiing. So far 186 people have responded with about half starting as kids but a third starting as teenagers or in their 20's. I can't say whether this is representative of the avid skiing population as a whole but it looks reasonable to me. I'm in that third, and most of those people began skiing on their own initiative during a period of their lives where cost/convenience were important.

So yes, the indoor ski concept intrigues me. I suspect I would have used it a few times in 1976-78 as a means of trying to improve if there had been such a place nearby. There are quite a few of these places across the northern European plain and virtually none in North America that I know about. This Meadowlands plan has been dragging on for a long time. What about someplace like Dallas, Houston or Atlanta?

Maybe fatbob, Jacob or someone else can enlighten us more about the indoor places in Europe. Are they effective in introducing newcomers to skiing and/or speeding up the learning curve for beginners so they will enjoy their first trip to the Alps more?

 

[fatbob]

Maybe fatbob, Jacob or someone else can enlighten us more about the indoor places in Europe. Are they effective in introducing newcomers to skiing and/or speeding up the learning curve for beginners so they will enjoy their first trip to the Alps more?

Well yes on the accelerate. Hard to know on the never evers though there are some stories like that of Kwame who only started skiing because he was working as a janitor at the Milton Keynes Snowdome and got a free lesson

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kwame_Nkrumah-Acheampong.

Certainly when I left Saturday night there were benches being laid out at the place I was with rental gear for kids birthday parties - I understand they do half learn to ski/ half ringos for these parties. I imagine they bring in a few never evers that way and similar with the private corporate nights. Makes a change from just going to the pub for team building.

 

[crgildart]

Did anybody mention some USA Alpine Olympic gold medals? It seems that when USA skiing is winning there is a lot of enthusiasm among young kids watching. I was already wanting to be a skier before the 76 Olympics. My parents didn't ski and weren't winter sports fans at all, but I remember how cool Billy Kidd was, and then Franz Klammer blew my mind as a 12 year old just gearing up to start resort skiing.

 

[noncrazycanuck]

and today most of the media focus is on the cost and complaints about the Olympics - that's not exactly inspiring the next generation of skiers.

 

[SSSdave]

Don't agree with the need to make skiing sexy. Any non outdoor person if asked if outdoor sports like surfing, climbing, snowboarding, extreme dirt biking, and skiing were sexy would likely readily agree because those sports require impressive physical person skills and talent unlike say going to an amusement park and riding a roller coaster. And most people associate those sports with cool people doing them. Being sexy is not enough if participation is a long ways off, is expensive, requires learning and physical skills, and is out of sight and out of mind.

The latter is maybe what ncc was really getting at. Although skiing may be hypothetically sexy for many urban people, it might as well be taking place on Mars especially with all the other more easily to participate in leisure and recreational activities bombarding people in this era. Thus most are not thinking about it just like a lot of other X-games stuff on tv they may agree looks amazing.

Thus per my Post #42 on page 3, I think there needs to be creative ways to get familiar groups that have or will have the economic ability to afford skiing, out onto ski slopes at dirt cheap prices midweek when slopes are slow. When one brings a bunch of college kids that go to the same school out together or a bunch of young people working at some hi tech company out, they will have fun. And as I noted, some will come back again. Conversely if one of those same people try the sport alone or with just a friend or two, it will not be nearly as fun as with being part of a big group.

 

[Jacob]

So yes, the indoor ski concept intrigues me. I suspect I would have used it a few times in 1976-78 as a means of trying to improve if there had been such a place nearby. There are quite a few of these places across the northern European plain and virtually none in North America that I know about. This Meadowlands plan has been dragging on for a long time. What about someplace like Dallas, Houston or Atlanta?

Maybe fatbob, Jacob or someone else can enlighten us more about the indoor places in Europe. Are they effective in introducing newcomers to skiing and/or speeding up the learning curve for beginners so they will enjoy their first trip to the Alps more?

My experiences are pretty much the same as what @fatbob is seeing. I've got a friend who learned to ski at one of the nearby indoor slopes (in Hemel Hempstead, which is a bit closer to here than Milton Keynes) because he works with disadvantaged kids and his program had skiing as one of the activities for them. He liked it enough that he did the whole progression of beginner lessons, and we've been a few times together on the odd weekend since then.

In addition to the birthday parties/group events, another good thing I've seen is Friday/Saturday night freestyle nights. They put up all of the terrain features they can do, offer discounted tickets for something like 4-5 hours for the price of 2, and have coaches out there working with the teenagers. I've seen groups of teens arriving in minibuses probably from some distance away just to do these freestyle nights with the coaches.

I think indoor slopes work best in areas that have fairly large populations that aren't necessarily close to the mountains but can easily get flights to places like Denver and SLC, so a place like Dallas would be pretty good. An indoor place there wouldn't have competition from local mountains but would have a customer base made up of destination resort skiers.

Having grown up in OK, I'm really jealous of how easy it is for people around here to get into skiing given that this area is a similar distance from the Alps as my home town is from the Rockies.

 

[crgildart]

Don't agree with the need to make skiing sexy. Any non outdoor person if asked if outdoor sports like surfing, climbing, snowboarding, extreme dirt biking, and skiing were sexy would likely readily agree because those sports require impressive physical person skills and talent unlike say going to an amusement park and riding a roller coaster. And most people associate those sports with cool people doing them. Being sexy is not enough if participation is a long ways off, is expensive, requires learning and physical skills, and is out of sight and out of mind. .

I've done some of those other things as well, but there was never nearly as much focus on the after parties with those as there is with skiing.. Add in the fact that you very likely can be spending a good part of the day sitting on a 6 foot plank with total strangers for half the day when skiing unless you're already skiing with 3 or more friends.. still packed in the lift corral with hundreds of strangers talking and chatting. Folks try to look good and spend money on stuff that both performs well and looks cool in the lift line.. Just not the same thing as blasting down a remote trail in the woods on a dirt bike.. The social dimension of skiing definitely has a "sexy" component for single folks. I definitely used to chat with other folks with those social aspects on my radar. Now married with kids but still see those dynamics as a big part of skiing for other folks..

 

[fatbob]

Just to clarify on the never evers I think I am saying it is a bit chicken and egg.

Some never evers will be encouraged to try skiing/boarding by virtue of availability of a low cost trial (compared to a week's holiday in Alps which is the defacto alternative for most Northern Europeans), others will go because they've already decided they are taking a holiday and want to be the best prepared for it they can be. Attendance definitely spikes between about October and February lending credence to the "holiday practice" theory (but also in a time of year when weather and daylight naturally reduces opportunties for other outdoor rec).

The UK has always had this model long before indoor snow. I learnt to ski hiking for turns on a dryslope and learnt to board similarly after looking for something to do on moving to a new city.

 

[Goose]

Many here seem stuck on indoor facilities as a big help in introducing skiing to many more people. For those who been following the thread closely you know my opinion of having such places in major cities like the one that may open on the edge of NYC. Imo that would be (for reasons Ive given) more a negative experience than a positive one. However, I don't feel that way when talking many other places throughout the country. I think in many places they could be positive experiences and fun thing to do. But I still don't think it creates as many long term skiers (or ski families) as you think it would. I think some yes, but just don't see any sort of substantial influx into the sport because of such places. Though I wouldn't be against them at all. Some is better than none I suppose.

Reasons are many. Firstly even when in places (other than NYC) where it would work more pleasantly there would still be most who are simply just looking for the "event" of it with no true desire to ever become involved to a significant degree. Involving themselves further into the sport still requires time, money, efforts, travel, equipment, etc, etc. It still a daunting task for the average family/person to take on. And so they still have to be willing to want to take that on.

The indoor facility is not really offering what its like to be out at a real natural mountain resort (big or small). You can never truly gain the feel of those surroundings nor experience that attractiveness. So for people who don't know what they are missing (which could be a persuasive and attractive wow factor) still will not experience that and still be in the dark about that. That element imo is a big part of the attraction (or for lack of a better term, sexiness) of the sport but just wont grab them because it doesn't exist inside a facility. You simply do not know what its like being out on a real ski mountain unless you actually have done it.

Most people who haven't are not bothered by missing that part (like we would be) because they are ignorant about it , don't have a true genuine interest, and wont know about it via being in an indoor facility. So that persuasive piece of the sport is still not experienced nor understood via the indoor facility. Imo that's a big attractive chunk about skiing that (when experienced) can leave people with the desire to then want to overcome the daunting tasks and efforts, time and money associated with getting involved. But an indoor ramp is not going to offer that attractiveness.

I think most people who would use an indoor facility are only going for the joyride of the moment without intentions of any long term commitments. And doing so in a time frame window. And in relation to my above opinion.....without the outdoors real mountain factors to experience may find the tasks involved less worthy of the return they are getting. Just not as rewarding nor attractive vs a real outdoors mountain/hill. Indoor facilities cant hurt anything and the sport may pick up some people but I really think it will be very few of them who then turn into avid skiers for years to come. Some are better than none I get it, but imo will never be a major player because in the end it still comes down to time, money, travel, and a real genuine interest to want to take on all that is involved to participate avidly in this cold weather sport. Build hundreds of these places and prove me wrong. I hope I am wrong. But then again lift lines, lodges, etc... around here are too crowded already..lol So be careful what we wish for cause I may get it

 

[Roger]

(First off I didn't read 12 pages of replies but I will) I am 37 so considered a Generation X but I will say this....there are a few reasons why I believe the sport and industry needs to change to today's generation.

First is cost, Airfare from Florida to say Denver is around $300 plus Hotels nightly cost around $200 and rentals and lift tickets a day will cost you around $150 so for the first day you are already at least $650. For 4 days of skiing that is $600 plus food and drink put that at least another $200. If i go to my friends and say heyyy who wants to go skiing for 4 days it will only be around $1500, so a family of 4 is at least more than likely I will be going by myself.

2nd is Society. Credit Cards were not introduced until 1958 so today's older generation usually got from their family a nice chunk of change or a house in their will from when they passed cause people were not able to have credit card debt. Today's generation from day 1 are told to get credit cards....BUY NOW PAY LATER...Look at barbie dolls it even comes with a credit card, from day 1 its cool to shop shop shop and spend spend and for the rest of your life pay to get out of debt, most people don't have the luxury of putting money away now cause now its going towards 30% interest rates ($300 for every $1000 spent ouch). (Yes everyone's individually responsible but we have all racked up some debt in our lives and school's don't teach kids how to be smart with their money)

3rd College debt is crazy my sister who is 36 is a doctor and she has over $400k in debt.

4th There are so many options out there now for kids to do things....go to Dubai go to London go to Paris...hey charge it on your card pay back later, can't lose memories but you can lose your life by being in debt for the rest of it. There are just so many other things to do now activity wise.

 

[BoofHead]

$400K debt for a degree. Wow!

 

[dbostedo]

$400K debt for a degree. Wow!

Not uncommon for M.D.s. BUT if you (eventually) get a good job you can pay it off relatively quickly. But I don't know what percent of graduates get those kinds of jobs... I do know a couple of M.D.s who have done that though - come out in big debt and had it paid off in just a few years.

 

[Goose]

(First off I didn't read 12 pages of replies but I will) I am 37 so considered a Generation X but I will say this....there are a few reasons why I believe the sport and industry needs to change to today's generation.

First is cost, Airfare from Florida to say Denver is around $300 plus Hotels nightly cost around $200 and rentals and lift tickets a day will cost you around $150 so for the first day you are already at least $650. For 4 days of skiing that is $600 plus food and drink put that at least another $200. If i go to my friends and say heyyy who wants to go skiing for 4 days it will only be around $1500, so a family of 4 is at least more than likely I will be going by myself.

2nd is Society. Credit Cards were not introduced until 1958 so today's older generation usually got from their family a nice chunk of change or a house in their will from when they passed cause people were not able to have credit card debt. Today's generation from day 1 are told to get credit cards....BUY NOW PAY LATER...Look at barbie dolls it even comes with a credit card, from day 1 its cool to shop shop shop and spend spend and for the rest of your life pay to get out of debt, most people don't have the luxury of putting money away now cause now its going towards 30% interest rates ($300 for every $1000 spent ouch). (Yes everyone's individually responsible but we have all racked up some debt in our lives and school's don't teach kids how to be smart with their money)

3rd College debt is crazy my sister who is 36 is a doctor and she has over $400k in debt.

4th There are so many options out there now for kids to do things....go to Dubai go to London go to Paris...hey charge it on your card pay back later, can't lose memories but you can lose your life by being in debt for the rest of it. There are just so many other things to do now activity wise.

I can get and also relate to things you've mentioned. College cost is imo the biggest scam going. And I get the whole credit thing too.

But how does skiing and the industry change to meet this? Your rant is understood and even agreed with. It is felt personally and understood but what, where , how does the industry change for this? What does it have to do with any of this? Except to say its expensive which it is. Everything is expensive nowadays and skiing never was a poor mans sport even decades ago. There was always a cost factor to skiing. This isn't going to the beach which BTW isn't cheap anymore either relatively speaking. But lift tickets were never cheap, equipment, travel, food, etc, etc, it was always a more expensive form of recreation. How is skiing suppose to change to todays generation? That suggestion isn't making sense to me. Just an honest thought.

 

[Viking9]

You know miniature golf can be fun too.
Get out there , hit that ball around, make a few puts.