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Brian Finch

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I don't understand the reference? And if I don't, then I'm sure many others don't either, conforming the disconnect between those in the ski industry and those we are trying to interest in the sport.

It's ski culture fun :)
 

tromano

Goin' the way they're pointed...
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@Goose Today's poorly behaved demographic is tomorrows core skier. A lifetime of skiing doesn't begin with a commitment to care about really learning to ski and to stay in the sport long term. It begins with discovery.

The kid with the mom taking him skiing is not the one who needs a "urban ski area" to discover skiing. Its for the kids who don't have a parent who skis and who maybe don't know anyone who has ever skied before. The kid who can't get 100 miles from town to go skiing at a feeder hill and who want to give the sport a try. When they grow up maybe they can take up that passion to a real mountain on their own independently. But today they need to discover the sport and maybe reinvent it in a way that will be totally different and awesome.
 

Goose

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@Goose Today's poorly behaved demographic is tomorrows core skier. A lifetime of skiing doesn't begin with a commitment to care about really learning to ski and to stay in the sport long term. It begins with discovery.

The kid with the mom taking him skiing is not the one who needs a "urban ski area" to discover skiing. Its for the kids who don't have a parent who skis and who maybe don't know anyone who has ever skied before. The kid who can't get 100 miles from town to go skiing at a feeder hill and who want to give the sport a try. When they grow up maybe they can take up that passion to a real mountain on their own independently. But today they need to discover the sport and maybe reinvent it in a way that will be totally different and awesome.

But why is it the poorly behaved are tomorrows core skier? Are you to tell us that well behaved people from the city are not tomorrows ski core?
I think your logic about an urban introduction to skiing is fine. But why in the world does skiing need poorly behaved people in order for skiing to have a future?

All I was saying is that "imo" the indoor "ski bump" (if it ever even opens) that sits just on the edge of NYC will not work. Reason being is because I feel too many of the wrong people will simply ruin it for everyone else that might otherwise enjoy it. The idea of it as an introduction might ....or might not serve the cause of growing the sport. But imo just not in NYC. And for all the reasons I mentioned earlier.

The idea that poorly behaved people are tomorrows core skier? with due respect, that makes no sense.
 

Viking9

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My 25 year old bought a pass for mammoth this year and my 20 year old bought her first pair of skis earlier this summer, we live in so cal , 5 hours from mammoth, the young one is excited about getting better at the local hills this year with her snowboarding boyfriend and his friends, all this because their mom and dad loaded them up and introduced them to the outdoors when they were young.
Of course skiing is an expensive sport but there are always ways to save a buck, I'm a construction worker and the wife works a couple of days a week doing salon stuff.
With the way my generation of parents has ruined youth sports like pop warner , soccer and little league it surprises me that more mom and dads aren't steering their kids to the outdoors.
 

Frankly

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Give attractive, charismatic, promiscuous people free skiing trips and the rest will follow.

Nightclubs pay these kind of promoters quite a lot, obviously they work.

In the old days the ski instructors fulfilled this role, with ski patrollers as wingmen.
 

Goose

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The demise was foretold in Curtis W Casewitt's book "Ski Racing - advice by the experts"

View attachment 31490

Far far too much of skiing is being quantified. Sorry I'm not buying the time / money / millennial argument.

Skiing has been boiled down to " I'm not going until the conditions are perfect and I have the perfect ski and I know that I will have the perfect time.....".

I know far too many people who are never pleasantly surprised because they're constantly searching their phone for the right snow conditions, crowds and lift reports.

At the same time I see far too many resorts failing to offering fun experiences that focus on ski culture.
Of course its being quantified. Partly because it requires those very resources of disposable time and money that your not buying as an excuse. That is real imo. And so with that, people want it to be worthwhile as much as possible. Skiing (as for the general masses) never really was a poor mans recreation. it always required time and some money even when cheaper. Though relatively speaking was never really a cheap thing to do.

Part of what you speak imo also comes down to what I mention earlier as for the general interests of society always evolving and changing as life itself evolves and changes as well. Part of which I mentioned is due to modern tech and everything so readily available. Its also due to busier lives in general too. One of the negatives with modern tech (the computer age) as well as generally busier lives is that we as a society have lost our patience. For the most part we no longer have any. Nowadays everyone wants/needs and searches for the best and most immediate results. Hence we quantify just about everything. Anything less than good as for being worthwhile of our time, money, and efforts is not good enough anymore. Right, wrong or indifferent, we've become somewhat spoiled in that sense. Or perhaps times have just changed to no fault of our own. Hence society always evolving. No one said its always for the best. None the less its just the way it is.

And so these things you mention are indeed not helping the sport. But such is life nowadays. Right or wrong, can we really say which?

Let me say..... (in my neck of the woods) its about Poconos skiing. Unless I make the treck to Vermont (which I cannot do but maybe once per year) its about poconos.
If I'm going to (and through the years I have many times) spend the time and money and efforts to bring the fam for a daunting day trip or overnighter I'm going to think twice about conditions and crowds. I have to imo. The money, time and efforts spent have to equate to something worthwhile.

Honestly its sometimes not much fun nor worthy in certain scenarios..
For example......One is normally already on a smaller hill and already crowded weekend or holiday. Ok so it is what it is and you deal with that zoo it and enjoy. But trust me its somewhat disappointing when on top of that you also find chunks of an already relatively small crowded hill closed making remaining terrain even more over crowded. Mobbed slopes, lift lines, and common areas( like the lodges). And poorer conditions on what is open. Thats all far too much sacrificed for a terrible return on the investment. I mean we do this for fun. That's why we spend the resources and make the efforts.....to have fun. So yes imo we look for quantity and quality return.
 
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Brian Finch

Privateer Skier @ www.SkiWithaGrimRipper.com
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Of course its being quantified. Partly because it requires those very resources of disposable time and money that your not buying as an excuse. That is real imo. And so with that, people want it to be worthwhile as much as possible. Skiing (as for the general masses) never really was a poor mans recreation. it always required time and some money even when cheaper. Though relatively speaking was never really a cheap thing to do.

Part of what you speak imo also comes down to what I mention earlier as for the general interests of society always evolving and changing as life itself evolves and changes as well. Part of which I mentioned is due to modern tech and everything so readily available. Its also due to busier lives in general too. One of the negatives with modern tech (the computer age) as well as generally busier lives is that we as a society have lost our patience. For the most part we no longer have any. Nowadays everyone wants/needs and searches for the best and most immediate results. Hence we quantify just about everything. Anything less than good as for being worthwhile of our time, money, and efforts is not good enough anymore. Right, wrong or indifferent, we've become somewhat spoiled in that sense. Or perhaps times have just changed to no fault of our own. Hence society always evolving. No one said its always for the best. None the less its just the way it is.

And so these things you mention are indeed not helping the sport. But such is life nowadays. Right or wrong, can we really say which?

Let me say..... (in my neck of the woods) its about Poconos skiing. Unless I make the treck to Vermont (which I cannot do but maybe once per year) its about poconos.
If I'm going to (and through the years I have many times) spend the time and money and efforts to bring the fam for a daunting day trip or overnighter I'm going to think twice about conditions and crowds. I have to imo. The money, time and efforts spent have to equate to something worthwhile.

Honestly its sometimes not much fun nor worthy in certain scenarios..
For example......One is normally already on a smaller hill and already crowded weekend or holiday. Ok so it is what it is and you deal with that zoo it and enjoy. But trust me its somewhat disappointing when on top of that you also find chunks of an already relatively small crowded hill closed making remaining terrain even more over crowded. Mobbed slopes, lift lines, and common areas( like the lodges). And poorer conditions on what is open. Thats all far too much sacrificed for a terrible return on the investment. I mean we do this for fun. That's why we spend the resources and make the efforts.....to have fun. So yes imo we look for a quality return.


Great points. I grew up in the Poconos & can relate to all of what you assert.

My aim in anti tech angle was/is that I was way happier skiing Shawnee on my 3G's because there was a sense of culture & anticipation.

Now, I live in Vermont & can hardly blast ppl out of bed unless 'all the boxes are checked'. Most locals hate skiing & everyone I do chat skiing with wants measure up over who has the most days, verical or widest skis.

It used to be a day skied, now I feel like it's obligatory Garmin/FaceBook/GoPro time. Over the last 2 seasons I see all these folks with selfie sticks & helmet mounts creating edits no one will ever watch whilst almost being run over my others trying to max out their iPhone app speedometers on 170's.

The connection that will bring ppl back is not WiFi.

I'm likely the only fossil left who chats ppl up in line.

The ski areas that realized that people are social beings & creates an environment around this will do best.



*i think this officially makes me a retro grouch
 

Goose

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Great points. I grew up in the Poconos & can relate to all of what you assert.

My aim in anti tech angle was/is that I was way happier skiing Shawnee on my 3G's because there was a sense of culture & anticipation.

Now, I live in Vermont & can hardly blast ppl out of bed unless 'all the boxes are checked'. Most locals hate skiing & everyone I do chat skiing with wants measure up over who has the most days, verical or widest skis.

It used to be a day skied, now I feel like it's obligatory Garmin/FaceBook/GoPro time. Over the last 2 seasons I see all these folks with selfie sticks & helmet mounts creating edits no one will ever watch whilst almost being run over my others trying to max out their iPhone app speedometers on 170's.

The connection that will bring ppl back is not WiFi.

I'm likely the only fossil left who chats ppl up in line.

The ski areas that realized that people are social beings & creates an environment around this will do best.



*i think this officially makes me a retro grouch
haha yea I'm kind a with ya as for certain things nowadays. As said evolving and changes are not always for the best. With all the greatness that comes from modern tech there are also negatives of course. For one thing , people dont have social skills anymore. As for busier lives? It ise to be people looked forward to getting together with friends and family and nowadays its like an unwanted obligation. Spending holidays together was looked forward to. Now? again as said its almost an unwanted obligation. sad really..But it is what it is. things are much different today. life is different. In many ways I wish the 70's (the era I grew up in) was still here. lol
 

Monique

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Selfish, disrespectful, loudmouth morons who lack common courtesy is not at all imo the demographic the sport needs.

I wonder how many selfish, disrespectful, loudmouth teens turn into reasonable humans once the hormones level out and life experience makes its mark.

I walked into a Starbucks a couple of years ago - it happened to coincide with some sort of high school event. The sheer volume of all these teens talking to each other - it was sensory overload, like when you walk into a Vegas casino. They're not trying to be obnoxious. But awareness of how your actions impact other people (beyond, say, not punching other people in the face) comes later.
 

David

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1 - More feeder hills close to home.
2 - Affordable window ticket prices.
3 - Affordable rental rates for those wishing to try it!
 

Fishbowl

A Parallel Universe
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If it snows, they will come.......if it snows?
 

fatbob

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The driving trip to see the national parks is a story that most immigrant families learn quickly. The stories about skiing are not shared with them. Having completed a big national park tour these families are crossing that off the bucket list, it's not intuitive for that person to say let's comeback to jackson next winter for skiing.

For the avoidance of doubt this is what my comments meant. The demographics of those with disposable income and time to travel and pursue leisure activities is changing. These are people prepared to hike out to Delicate Arch on a midwinter morning so it is not as if they are unmotivated if the end result is worth it. But the ski industry appears somewhat behind the curve in diversity. It's the same in Europe. Not saying there is any intent and my observation is of course only anecdotal but I think it is a question worth asking and maybe some of our diverse Pugskiers have a view.
 

David Chaus

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I’ve been thinking that one of the biggest challenges facing any new skier is getting a good fitting boot. If I ran the zoo, I’d have a boot like Apex as standard rental equipment, so that getting a comfortable boot that works well enough is more easily achieved. If that new skier can concentrate on learning to ski, without experiencing the discomfort that comes with typical rental boots they have a better chance of staying interested.

Are you listenening, Apex? Maybe Elan can come up with something like that to go along with all the rental market skis they sell, whether labeled Elan or any other brand.
 

Goose

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I wonder how many selfish, disrespectful, loudmouth teens turn into reasonable humans once the hormones level out and life experience makes its mark.

I walked into a Starbucks a couple of years ago - it happened to coincide with some sort of high school event. The sheer volume of all these teens talking to each other - it was sensory overload, like when you walk into a Vegas casino. They're not trying to be obnoxious. But awareness of how your actions impact other people (beyond, say, not punching other people in the face) comes later.

really? Hormones is a built in excuse for one not being aware of how his/her behavior impacts other people? with due respect I think not.

I suppose we are swaying a bit off topic with this but it did have to do with my opinion of an indoor ski hill at nyc. . But I get the whole teen/20something thing. I was once one and I'm not saying when I grew up we were always angels. But I will say that as poor (at times) as we may have been with our behavior we did behave for the most well when around other people. Especially when around people older than us. We knew and were aware of our surroundings and when to curb our language, etiquettes, and general behavior. Hormones was no excuse not to. I'm sure we weren't perfect but we were mindful enough and knew when and how to display common courtesy and respect. That's not hard to do. But what it is nowadays is somewhat gone.

You mention casinos. I've gone to casinos (atlantic city) for decades and let me say the general behavior displayed is a far cry from what it use to be. I can say that about very many things I/we doand places we go nowadays vs what it was like years ago doing the very same things. This is why I say that an indoor "ski bump" basically in NYC wont work for much of anything except a poor experience.
. But to continue.....Hormones is no excuse for not being aware of your surroundings and acting accordingly. More people did this much better years back and didnt they/we too have young hormones?

Sorry but I don't buy it. One must be accountable for their own actions. Perhaps I just have a bad taste in my mouth but honestly far too many things we do and places we go the general behavior as for common courtesies, respect, and etiquettes seems to lack more and more. And even on the ski slopes too fwiw. And so it appears to me too many are not growing out of it but instead continue it and then also have kids who then continue it because well....they were never taught any better. But even then still you get old enough to late teens and you should (plane and simple) know right from wrong as for how to act. Making excuses for it is perhaps part of the problem as to why it seems to get worse. Just my .02
 
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fatbob

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I’ve been thinking that one of the biggest challenges facing any new skier is getting a good fitting boot. If I ran the zoo, I’d have a boot like Apex as standard rental equipment, so that getting a comfortable boot that works

I wouldn't wish my worst enemy Apex boots after the alignment horror I had trialling them. Heavy and clumpy too.
 

Jacob

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There are a lot of alpine teams, WC down to American Ski Academies training right now, indoors in Europe. They are heading to the glaciers soon, but many are sending a week or two indoors. In the icebox, the freezer, whatever nickname they attach. Is it skiing? Maybe not what we all like, but it's making turns in man make snow. A lot of turns. These facilities are located far away from the mountains. Cities like Munich. Holland.

Who knows? They appeal to me more than the artificial mats, and other no snow trainers. But, at some level, it's all fun and all skiing. But the first time I saw the inside of one, it was a bit shocking. No natural light, let alone sun. AC on....cold.

The indoor slopes around here make it incredibly easy for beginners to get a taste of the sport. The price of the lift ticket includes equipment rental, and that includes outerwear and gloves if you need them, in addition to skis, boots, poles, and a helmet. So, you don't have to invest in anything except underwear and socks to have a go.

Also, if the ski slope is close to shops and restaurants, then you make it all part of a day out. You can ski for an hour or two, then grab some lunch and do some shopping. And you can do that all through the summer and autumn. So if you're a beginner, you can get plenty of lessons in before you do your winter trip to the big destination resort.

They're also really good for freestyle training. The abundance of indoor slopes and outdoor artificial slopes is one of the reasons the British are so good at freestyle events in the Olympics and X Games.
 

Monique

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I've never skied indoors. Does it have enough of the "flavor" of outdoor skiing that it would get people hooked to try the outdoor thing?
 

Jacob

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This random YouTube video gives a pretty good idea of what it's like. You can see some of the terrain features on the skier's right, with the sledding area on the lower part on the right. The beginner area is the lower part on the skier's left.

The good thing for beginners is that you never have to deal with bad conditions. It's never bitterly cold, snowing heavily, blowing a gale, raining, etc. It's always mid-20s F with no wind.

You don't even need goggles or sunglasses, which feels weird if you've been skiing a long time before your first time in an indoor place.
 
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