Question on ski boot flex and skier development

[James]

^^^ interesting. I'm dubious "how they flex" -( what does that mean??) has anything to do with it. I suspect the angles just work for you better.

Both flex mainly by deformation, no?

 

[Chris Geib]

I would tend to agree about the angles since ScotsSkier is working with high quality boots. Getting the geometry right is a PITA and where a great boot fitter shines by getting the boot selection choices close.

A mismatch can have you working against the boot. Thus why I think we often hear one person feels a boot is too stiff and another person feels the same boot is not.

 

[WheatKing]

So I'm confused by these claims that flex isn't important.

It isn't that flex isn't important.. it is.. what constitutes too much flex, or not enough flex is 100% up to the fitter and the owner of the boots in the conditions that they ski in. What works for one person might not necessarily work for another. If you can crush the boot in the shop.. the flex isn't enough for your weight/leg length/stance/strength.. if you can't crush the boot in the shop.. it doesn't matter how much more "flex resistance" you add too the boot, you're at your limit of exertion to the cuff and either it's stiff enough.. or its beyond your capabilities and adds nothing. The rest is fit.. Like Phil mentioned.. the higher the flex rating ( irregardless of what how it actually flexes in real life beyond the marketing).. the better the boot.. generally. maybe you only need a 110 flex boot.. but if it doesn't fit right, and the 130 does.. that's more important.. Depending on what I'm skiing, the top buckle/strap is sometimes loose.. and I have a lot of ankle movement.. or sometimes I ratchet it down.. and i have a little to none, sometimes I forget the boots are in walk mode and I have a LOT of ankle movement.. but if i have a single take away it's this.. I'd rather ski in a boot that's too stiff and loosely buckle it when i want to take it easy.. than a boot that's too soft regardless of how tight the buckles are and suffer..

in order of importance:

1. fit
1. flex
3. farkles (straps/buckles/soles/walk/heaters)
4. color

Fit and flex are both equally important.. you need enough shell resistance to not crush your boots, but the best fit once you reach that level of shell resistance... does that make sense?

If you can crush a 90.. and a 100.. then you want a 110 or up.. the best fitting boot your budget can afford..
If you're crushing a 130 in the shop... either your fit.. or you're shaq/hulk/have a natural affinity for gravity..

When i got my new boots i went in looking for a 120/130 and came out with a 110, and it isn't because i had a crappy fitter.. I asked around a lot to find someone who knew what they were doing and drove 3 hours each way (several times) to ensure that what i got was exactly what I needed.. The shell works for me.. i can't overpower it enough that it is deforming in a detrimental way, and after grinding and punching and stretching, and some superfeet insoles.. the fit is phenomenal.. it's on par with custom made skates I used to get that were designed around my feet which cost significantly more. People told me this and i'll repeat it.. find a good fitter and listen to them.

 

[Monique]

People told me this and i'll repeat it.. find a good fitter and listen to them.

My feet don't give me a choice on that. And my latest boots fit like a glove, so nice, no pain on my sixth toe at all.

I've skied with straps and buckles loosened when it was a cold day and my boot wouldn't flex - it didn't feel nearly as effective as a boot that actually flexes with my leg.

 

[Chris Geib]

...And when it's cold enough that my boots aren't flexing, then I do have trouble skiing well. So flex plays some role. Maybe my need for flex is because I'm an inferior skier, but even if that's the case, I don't think that "suck it up" is the answer. So I'm confused by these claims that flex isn't important.

Did someone say "Suck it up" is the answer? Guess I missed it.

Might be just me, but I find that quite frequently when I go skiing it is cold out and my boots work in that condition!!!!!

If they did not, I would take that symptom to mean something is less then ideal and work on sorting out and improving both the boot geometry and technique ...which I continue to do.

While standing on a flat floor in your boots with no skis on, are you able to flex fully and extend fully through a complete range of motion while staying in balance and cuff neutral?
...or do you have to flex your boot in order to do so?
...does this change when you shim under the boot to match your binding delta?

From what you describe, I would expect you need to flex the boot in order to stay in balance, thus when they get stiff you lose that ability and it effects your skiing.

So does that make it:
a) Boot flex issue
b) Boot (and binding) alignment/geometry issue
c) Skier skills issue
d) Combination of the above


To the point of claims that flex is not important. I would not say that is really the point, but rather to get create some dissonance to promote some thought about the matter instead of accepting the common dogma without question.

Example:
If you can flex and extend throughout a full range while remaining cuff neutral and in balance, then it really should not matter if we poured and cured concrete around your boots and asked you to repeat. So, why would it make a difference when they get cold and their flex pattern changes?

I think Bob posted earlier about our needing to learn to move differently in ski boots without our heel raising when we flex and likely restricted ankle range of motion by making larger movements at the knee, hip, spine, shoulder, elbow... More so in less dynamic and slower skiing where the forces do not exist that we ask the boot to assist us with. Which is where I think "flex" is important and matched to what we call on the boot to help us with and help us support against the forces we intend to work with. If I'm doing wedge Christies or basic parallel in the bumps my boots are way more then I 'need' and I will not be generating the forces necessary to flex them much if any at all. When skiing faster the boot then assists me to stand against the forces created and flexes appropriately. I am prefer the boot to be setup for dynamic skiing and I am willing to not have it flex when doing wedge Christies. I have learned the movements Bob refers to and my alignment is such that I can fully flex and extend and stay in balance while skiing at a slow rate of speed without requiring the boot to flex in order to do so. Others prefer a softer flexing boot. YMMV

 

[Monique]

Did someone say "Suck it up" is the answer? Guess I missed it.

That's the default answer in my head for any discomfort question. See: military father.

I'm in new boots now, and have not had the flex issues I did with previous boots so far. And it's been pretty cold for most of those days.

 

[Chris Geib]

Oh. Comfort. That's an entirely different topic.

Suck it up!

 

[Monique]

Oh. Comfort. That's an entirely different topic.

Suck it up!

Discomfort covers everything from "I can feel the texture of my ski socks" to "minor flesh wound" (Monty Python style)!

 

[ScotsSkier]

^^^ interesting. I'm dubious "how they flex" -( what does that mean??) has anything to do with it. I suspect the angles just work for you better.

Both flex mainly by deformation, no?

No, a lot more than just angles. Some boots flex smoothly, without a lot of deformation. Others (redster is the poster child for me) just dont move smoothly in flex, probably rely more on deformation, and are more like an on/off switch which makes it harder to modulate pressure to the tip of the ski. Great in lateral rigidity but not so good fore/aft flexion

 

[AmyPJ]

@AmyPJ good post and so happy for you! Yep, I think too often flex is the focus when it's the overall feel of the boot that for most skiers is much more important. This is why I love the BD Doc liners.

BD liners are most likely my next investment. Even with a ultra-narrow race boot, I still have a few voids I'd like to have filled. I'll try some extra foam padding first, but my fitter agrees that a BD might be the best option for me.

As for trouble flexing in colder temps, I was pleasantly surprised today that at 10 degrees, the B5s still worked great for me. I also am realizing that some of my stance issues I've been complaining about were because I WAS trying to get too far forward. These boots let me balance in a more natural/upright position, which in the cut up powder I was skiing today, was very welcome.

I like these boots so much, I might hunt down another pair next season to store for future use! If I get BD liners, I can move them easily into another of the same boot. I will most likely be out there nearly 100 days this season so imagine I'll wear through boots pretty quickly.

 

[razie]

No, neither, but I do recall something about skier angle of attack matching slope, with steeper slopes requiring you to get more forward.

Not sure about that. There is a bigger and quicker re-centering on the steeps, simply because the skis catch up faster, but this is more down the hill than into the boot flex, so... hmm.

And when it's cold enough that my boots aren't flexing, then I do have trouble skiing well. So flex plays some role. Maybe my need for flex is because I'm an inferior skier, but even if that's the case, I don't think that "suck it up" is the answer. So I'm confused by these claims that flex isn't important.

Flex numbers are not consistent from manufacturer to manufacturer, as there is no standardized way to measure it. Also, to compensate for a frozen boot (or frozen brain sometimes), I sometimes undo the top buckles. Anyways, flex is important, it's just that fore/aft is a complex equation and many factors come into play rather than just that one number.

No, a lot more than just angles. Some boots flex smoothly, without a lot of deformation. Others (redster is the poster child for me) just dont move smoothly in flex, probably rely more on deformation, and are more like an on/off switch which makes it harder to modulate pressure to the tip of the ski. Great in lateral rigidity but not so good fore/aft flexion

Yup. I have all sorts of boots; 130s that refuse to flex, small sizes that I had to grind to allow the cuff to not hit the boot etc. Some with an unknown defect that prevents the cuff to flex at all...

Something as simple as the way you put on the boots can make a huge difference in either direction.

 

[James]

Example:
If you can flex and extend throughout a full range while remaining cuff neutral and in balance, then it really should not matter if we poured and cured concrete around your boots and asked you to repeat. So, why would it make a difference when they get cold and their flex pattern changes?

Ah the concrete boot theory...
When the plastic supply ran out and rioting ensued, Marie Antoinette shouted, "Let them use concrete for their boots!"

 

[Wendy]

That's my boot, the third new boot I've had in three years. I ended up in this boot because it comes in a low volume version that fits my foot, almost. ZipFits finsih the deal.

Its flex, at 105, seems stiffer than the two 110s I had the previous two years (Atomic Redsters and Rossi Heros), but I'm OK with boots that don't want to flex these days. Plus, this boot has the added advantage of fitting my feet and not causing intense pain (as in nerve pain requiring crutches, and black toenails requiring surgery after they grew back ingrown).

Finally - what joy - a boot that fits!

Yes, this is a great-fitting boot. Because my foot is so narrow, I have BD foam liners. (I always have Zipfits). I agree that the flex is stiffer....I feel that the boot is a tad more stiff than the Lange RS120's that I had previously. One great thing about this boot compared to the Langes is that I am on a flat ski, whereas in the Lange, I was always a bit on my inside edges. (footbeds, etc. being the same). Oh, AND they are comfortable!!!

 

[oldschoolskier]

Think of boots and skis in terms of cars, would you put a beginner in a F1 race car. Not on your life.

More something that lacks a little power, has a bit underwater to ensure slower corners and let them learn.

As they progress increase power and handling (except if the brains are out still catching up age wise.

 

[LiquidFeet]

I think the stiff flex of these Tecnicas may have to do with the lower cuff buckle flaps sitting against the top of the instep plastic. I may have my bootfitter grind those a bit. I've recently purchased a Dremel, so maybe I'll do it myself. But on the other hand the boots are performing just fine as they are. Maybe I don't need them to flex. Not sure, so I'll wait.

 

[AmyPJ]

Annnnd I spoke too soon about my ability to flex my new boots in the cold. Turns out, zero to five degrees was a bit too cold! It was frigid on the mountain yesterday, and I was struggling and struggling and just thought I was tired after skiing the crud and cut up powder the day before. Then I realized my boots were as stiff as bricks. Funny that at 10 degrees, they were fine. So, what did I feel? I could NOT engage the tips of my skis at ALL. My quads were on FIRE. I still managed to ski about 10k vertical (because hey, work and all ) but it was a real eye-opening experience.

Not sure if I'm going to look into getting them softened a tad for days like yesterday, or leave them and do my best to avoid skiing in temps below 10 degrees. We rarely have weather that cold here anyway. I'll talk to my fitter about it. Because it really only affects the forward flex of the boots, it might not hurt to soften them. (Someone correct me if I'm wrong on that.)

 

[Ron]

Example:
If you can flex and extend throughout a full range while remaining cuff neutral and in balance, then it really should not matter if we poured and cured concrete around your boots and asked you to repeat. So, why would it make a difference when they get cold and their flex pattern changes?

I think Bob posted earlier about our needing to learn to move differently in ski boots without our heel raising when we flex and likely restricted ankle range of motion by making larger movements at the knee, hip, spine, shoulder, elbow... More so in less dynamic and slower skiing where the forces do not exist that we ask the boot to assist us with

I will take this back one step. can the skier do this in bare feet first. try doing a slow, limited range one-leg squat while maintaining balance and control with the hips properly aligned (no twisting) .

 

[Monique]

Annnnd I spoke too soon about my ability to flex my new boots in the cold. Turns out, zero to five degrees was a bit too cold! It was frigid on the mountain yesterday, and I was struggling and struggling and just thought I was tired after skiing the crud and cut up powder the day before. Then I realized my boots were as stiff as bricks. Funny that at 10 degrees, they were fine. So, what did I feel? I could NOT engage the tips of my skis at ALL. My quads were on FIRE. I still managed to ski about 10k vertical (because hey, work and all ) but it was a real eye-opening experience.

Not sure if I'm going to look into getting them softened a tad for days like yesterday, or leave them and do my best to avoid skiing in temps below 10 degrees. We rarely have weather that cold here anyway. I'll talk to my fitter about it. Because it really only affects the forward flex of the boots, it might not hurt to soften them. (Someone correct me if I'm wrong on that.)

If you soften them, you may hate them on spring days. I don't think there's a boot out there whose flex characteristics don't change between 0 and 60 degrees F. So - how often do you ski between 0 and 5F?

 

[Chris Geib]

Annnnd I spoke too soon about my ability to flex my new boots in the cold. Turns out, zero to five degrees was a bit too cold! It was frigid on the mountain yesterday, and I was struggling and struggling and just thought I was tired after skiing the crud and cut up powder the day before. Then I realized my boots were as stiff as bricks. Funny that at 10 degrees, they were fine. So, what did I feel? I could NOT engage the tips of my skis at ALL. My quads were on FIRE. I still managed to ski about 10k vertical (because hey, work and all ) but it was a real eye-opening experience.

Not sure if I'm going to look into getting them softened a tad for days like yesterday, or leave them and do my best to avoid skiing in temps below 10 degrees. We rarely have weather that cold here anyway. I'll talk to my fitter about it. Because it really only affects the forward flex of the boots, it might not hurt to soften them. (Someone correct me if I'm wrong on that.)

Softening them properly is not reversible, so I would be conservative and cautious about doing that. I think I would continue to explore working on balancing the boot, getting video and working with a mentor to refine the movements Bob discusses in post 10 of this thread. I recommend reviewing that post - repeatedly.

Bob often points out the mythologies and dogma about skiing ...and ski boots. One common one being the need to pressure and flex the boot to engage the tips and initiate a turn. Another myth is that "being forward" is gauged by boot tongue pressure. Very common for these to result in driving the skier out of balance ...more so when the boots become stiffer when cold. Certainly softening the boot so it yields could result in satisfaction if the goal is to flex the boot.

Personally I do not think much of the concept of the skier flexing the boot to initiate a turn or engage the tips. If I find it necessary to use cuff pressure in order to apply pressure to the tips of my skis (which I do on occasion), then I really do not want the boot to flex at that time, I want that lever to be solid and transmit the pressure I apply to the ski. If I get out of balance fore or aft, I want a very solid boot that I can use to move my myself back into position, if it yields when I call upon it, then it is no help to me when I need it. When loaded in a turn is when I want the boot to flex appropriately, but that is when we are both under a lot of force where it is assisting me to stand against the turn forces but is compliant enough (when under that pressure) that undulations under foot can be managed; but some of that is also technique and proper movements and pressure control.

Again, I would be cautious about pulling the trigger too quickly on softening and would spend more time to further explore technique and boot balancing.

...There is a lot of mythology about ski boots and the role of ankle flex and boot flex in performance skiing. Many skiers still insist that we must be able to flex our ankles deeply as part of creating ski performance. Without getting into too much side-tracking detail, I'll just ask a question I've often asked: How do skis respond to "boot flex"? The answer, of course, is that they don't. They respond to pressure, including fore-aft pressure shifts, and as skiers, the more precisely and accurately we can regulate that pressure, the better. With the right learned skills, we can flex and extend through our full range, manage the dramatic forces of high-performance turns, and absorb large moguls, while maintaining fore-aft balance throughout. This requires the ability to find fore-aft "neutral" in our boot cuffs at all times, regardless of the degree of knee flexion or extension. If I need to "flex my boots" every time I bend my knees, I will be extremely limited in my ability to balance, flex, extend, and regulate fore-aft pressure.

Get good boots and learn the right movements!

Best regards,
Bob Barnes

 

[WheatKing]

Annnnd I spoke too soon about my ability to flex my new boots in the cold. Turns out, zero to five degrees was a bit too cold! It was frigid on the mountain yesterday, and I was struggling and struggling and just thought I was tired after skiing the crud and cut up powder the day before. Then I realized my boots were as stiff as bricks. Funny that at 10 degrees, they were fine. So, what did I feel? I could NOT engage the tips of my skis at ALL. My quads were on FIRE. I still managed to ski about 10k vertical (because hey, work and all ) but it was a real eye-opening experience.

Not sure if I'm going to look into getting them softened a tad for days like yesterday, or leave them and do my best to avoid skiing in temps below 10 degrees. We rarely have weather that cold here anyway. I'll talk to my fitter about it. Because it really only affects the forward flex of the boots, it might not hurt to soften them. (Someone correct me if I'm wrong on that.)

Did it feel like you couldn't get over-top and in that sweet spot of your skis? I had much of the same issue when i changed boots, they had less of a forward lean than my old boots.. rather than fight it.. i moved my binding forward slightly, this moved by COM (center of mass) forward just enough that the world was right again.. maybe you can try this? sounds like you really lean on the boots when you ski.. which would make your COM ahead of where you can get it when your boots don't(or can't) flex. Doing this however will change your normal skiing, and you'll need to be in a more relaxed (upright) stance..if you ski in the same stance after moving the binding forward.. you'll really be working the tips even harder, might find that your skis will hook more than expected. Small change can make a big difference.