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Chris Geib

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WheatKing raises the idea of pressure underfoot which might be off topic for “boot flex” (though related), but definitely on topic for the “skier development” portion of the question. Most of the time the interaction with the boot is expressed as using it as a lever to impart force to the ski. Learning how to manage the pressure under foot independently of cuff pressure is a skill I do not hear expressed very often; though, very much a part of the learned movements that Bob has described.

Can you move pressure fore & aft under foot while remaining cuff neutral?

Do you apply pressure to the front of the ski by applying pressure to the cuff, under foot, both, neither, sometimes, depends? If the answer is “Always ____”, is there maybe a bias??

I have come to think of binding fore/aft position adjustment to relate to the ski. Where is the sweet spot of the ski? Is the ski balanced or unbalanced? Most times I do not monkey with mount point, but I generally prefer a more traditional type ski with something close to a ball of foot over center of running surface and if close I can adjust pressure under foot to get the ski to respond as desired. I think last year or the year before I skied @FairToMiddlin Head Rally and did move the binding back 2cm, but that is the only ski I can recall not skiing at the mount point in a long time.

I know many that always start with their bindings a cm or two forward. If one has to move the bindings on every ski by default I might wonder if that is a skier or boot bias/deficiency. Does it matter? I wonder what @bud heishman thoughts are on binding mount position related to boot balancing?

Either way, still seems we would be best served to learn how to manage pressure under foot independent of cuff pressure.

Research the “Campbell Balancer” (critically) for ‘a theory’ on determining your optimal mount point. I believe John Howe had some thoughts on ski & skier interaction in Skiing Mechanics.
 

AmyPJ

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Did it feel like you couldn't get over-top and in that sweet spot of your skis? I had much of the same issue when i changed boots, they had less of a forward lean than my old boots.. rather than fight it.. i moved my binding forward slightly, this moved by COM (center of mass) forward just enough that the world was right again.. maybe you can try this? sounds like you really lean on the boots when you ski.. which would make your COM ahead of where you can get it when your boots don't(or can't) flex. Doing this however will change your normal skiing, and you'll need to be in a more relaxed (upright) stance..if you ski in the same stance after moving the binding forward.. you'll really be working the tips even harder, might find that your skis will hook more than expected. Small change can make a big difference.

Yes to this. All of it, actually. I skied a run (which is a loooong way, our runs are long) with an L3 instructor after lunch and things were feeling better. I'm pretty sure I have a tendency to make skiing harder than it needs to be...

WheatKing raises the idea of pressure underfoot which might be off topic for “boot flex” (though related), but definitely on topic for the “skier development” portion of the question. Most of the time the interaction with the boot is expressed as using it as a lever to impart force to the ski. Learning how to manage the pressure under foot independently of cuff pressure is a skill I do not hear expressed very often; though, very much a part of the learned movements that Bob has described.

Can you move pressure fore & aft under foot while remaining cuff neutral?

Do you apply pressure to the front of the ski by applying pressure to the cuff, under foot, both, neither, sometimes, depends? If the answer is “Always ____”, is there maybe a bias??

I have come to think of binding fore/aft position adjustment to relate to the ski. Where is the sweet spot of the ski? Is the ski balanced or unbalanced? Most times I do not monkey with mount point, but I generally prefer a more traditional type ski with something close to a ball of foot over center of running surface and if close I can adjust pressure under foot to get the ski to respond as desired. I think last year or the year before I skied @FairToMiddlin Head Rally and did move the binding back 2cm, but that is the only ski I can recall not skiing at the mount point in a long time.

I know many that always start with their bindings a cm or two forward. If one has to move the bindings on every ski by default I might wonder if that is a skier or boot bias/deficiency. Does it matter? I wonder what @bud heishman thoughts are on binding mount position related to boot balancing?

Either way, still seems we would be best served to learn how to manage pressure under foot independent of cuff pressure.

Research the “Campbell Balancer” (critically) for ‘a theory’ on determining your optimal mount point. I believe John Howe had some thoughts on ski & skier interaction in Skiing Mechanics.

I DEFINITELY have a bias to cuff pressure. Thanks for bringing this up. It gives me something to think about and work on.
 

AmyPJ

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Softening them properly is not reversible, so I would be conservative and cautious about doing that. I think I would continue to explore working on balancing the boot, getting video and working with a mentor to refine the movements Bob discusses in post 10 of this thread. I recommend reviewing that post - repeatedly.

Bob often points out the mythologies and dogma about skiing ...and ski boots. One common one being the need to pressure and flex the boot to engage the tips and initiate a turn. Another myth is that "being forward" is gauged by boot tongue pressure. Very common for these to result in driving the skier out of balance ...more so when the boots become stiffer when cold. Certainly softening the boot so it yields could result in satisfaction if the goal is to flex the boot.

Personally I do not think much of the concept of the skier flexing the boot to initiate a turn or engage the tips. If I find it necessary to use cuff pressure in order to apply pressure to the tips of my skis (which I do on occasion), then I really do not want the boot to flex at that time, I want that lever to be solid and transmit the pressure I apply to the ski. If I get out of balance fore or aft, I want a very solid boot that I can use to move my myself back into position, if it yields when I call upon it, then it is no help to me when I need it. When loaded in a turn is when I want the boot to flex appropriately, but that is when we are both under a lot of force where it is assisting me to stand against the turn forces but is compliant enough (when under that pressure) that undulations under foot can be managed; but some of that is also technique and proper movements and pressure control.

Again, I would be cautious about pulling the trigger too quickly on softening and would spend more time to further explore technique and boot balancing.
I missed this post...this is really interesting stuff for me to chew on! We might really be onto something here with my struggles with engaging my tips. I'm trying TOO hard, and relying on the cuff TOO much. I've got work to do! :rolleyes:
 

Monique

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I missed this post...this is really interesting stuff for me to chew on! We might really be onto something here with my struggles with engaging my tips. I'm trying TOO hard, and relying on the cuff TOO much. I've got work to do! :rolleyes:

Try skiing in Tevas. Report back ;-)
 

Chris V.

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Annnnd I spoke too soon about my ability to flex my new boots in the cold. Turns out, zero to five degrees was a bit too cold! It was frigid on the mountain yesterday, and I was struggling and struggling and just thought I was tired after skiing the crud and cut up powder the day before. Then I realized my boots were as stiff as bricks. Funny that at 10 degrees, they were fine. So, what did I feel? I could NOT engage the tips of my skis at ALL. My quads were on FIRE. I still managed to ski about 10k vertical (because hey, work and all ogwink) but it was a real eye-opening experience.
It seems to me that we should give respect to AmyPJ's perception that the cold, stiff condition of her boots was impairing her ability to ski well, when compared to what she had achieved on warmer days. A possibility that occurs to me is that under more average conditions, she was flexing into the tongues a bit to create the delta angle that put her into the stance that was most functional for her, but that when the boots were at their stiffest she could no longer do so. Might an alignment evaluation shed useful light on her predicament?

Remember Bob Barnes' advice as to one beneficial effect of a boot with a degree of flexibility--the ability to use ankle flexion "TO PROVIDE THE ULTIMATE PRECISION "FINE-TUNING" TO FORE-AFT BALANCE."
 

AmyPJ

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Try skiing in Tevas. Report back ;-)

Brrrr, now those would make for some cold toes!

It seems to me that we should give respect to AmyPJ's perception that the cold, stiff condition of her boots was impairing her ability to ski well, when compared to what she had achieved on warmer days. A possibility that occurs to me is that under more average conditions, she was flexing into the tongues a bit to create the delta angle that put her into the stance that was most functional for her, but that when the boots were at their stiffest she could no longer do so. Might an alignment evaluation shed useful light on her predicament?

Remember Bob Barnes' advice as to one beneficial effect of a boot with a degree of flexibility--the ability to use ankle flexion "TO PROVIDE THE ULTIMATE PRECISION "FINE-TUNING" TO FORE-AFT BALANCE."

This is where it seems the lateral stiffness of a stiffer boot works for me, but sometimes the forward flex of such a boot might be too much. I'll keep working on skiing them. I am SO fortunate to have access to some great instructors to help me every week. I got some coaching yesterday and it helped me a lot. I am beginning to think I make skiing WAY harder than it has to be. And I think some of that might come from my earlier days of skiing in boots that were entirely too big--picked up a lot of defensive bad habits that won't go away.
 

oldschoolskier

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Sometimes boot stiffness is falsely blamed as being too soft, but the ski is too stiff based on body type and technique as there is a relationship between boots and ski.

Being blamed of being to stiff is more of a function of technique (sometime body type) and your mechanics of transfering input into the ski.

There has to be a balance of the ski and the boot to max out the performance, sometimes this realationship is missed.
 

bud heishman

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WheatKing raises the idea of pressure underfoot which might be off topic for “boot flex” (though related), but definitely on topic for the “skier development” portion of the question. Most of the time the interaction with the boot is expressed as using it as a lever to impart force to the ski. Learning how to manage the pressure under foot independently of cuff pressure is a skill I do not hear expressed very often; though, very much a part of the learned movements that Bob has described.

Can you move pressure fore & aft under foot while remaining cuff neutral?

Do you apply pressure to the front of the ski by applying pressure to the cuff, under foot, both, neither, sometimes, depends? If the answer is “Always ____”, is there maybe a bias??

I have come to think of binding fore/aft position adjustment to relate to the ski. Where is the sweet spot of the ski? Is the ski balanced or unbalanced? Most times I do not monkey with mount point, but I generally prefer a more traditional type ski with something close to a ball of foot over center of running surface and if close I can adjust pressure under foot to get the ski to respond as desired. I think last year or the year before I skied @FairToMiddlin Head Rally and did move the binding back 2cm, but that is the only ski I can recall not skiing at the mount point in a long time.

I know many that always start with their bindings a cm or two forward. If one has to move the bindings on every ski by default I might wonder if that is a skier or boot bias/deficiency. Does it matter? I wonder what @bud heishman thoughts are on binding mount position related to boot balancing?

Either way, still seems we would be best served to learn how to manage pressure under foot independent of cuff pressure.

Research the “Campbell Balancer” (critically) for ‘a theory’ on determining your optimal mount point. I believe John Howe had some thoughts on ski & skier interaction in Skiing Mechanics.

My experience has been, as we restrict flex and movement inside the boots, proper alignment on the sagittal plane become more critical. As we zero in on good sagittal alignment, small movements inside the boot become more consequential. A tighter fitting, stiffer boot requires less movement to transmit impulse to the skis.
As this evolution occurs, the ability to affect the skis with these more subtle movements inside the boot becomes more apparent. Watching good skiers, it becomes apparent the range of ankle flexion is not as important as is being in an accurately aligned detent stance to allow effective pressure management along the length of the skis as well as between the skis and the snow vertically. Stiffer boots require the skier posesses the skills to modify the flexion extension movements to remain in balance without flexing the ankle, while using the stiffness of the boot as more of a suspension system to combat higher turning forces. In other words the skier is not trying to flex the boot, rather the external forces created cause the boot to flex.

Binding placement is one of the four parameters of sagittal alignment and one I address last in the sequence. Binding placement will dictate stance and trajectory. The most obvious spectrum would be the extreme of a center mounted park ski vs. an aft mounted powder ski. The skier will intuitively adapt their stance and trajectory to the placement of the binding over the sweet spot of the ski. Try skiing powder on a center mounted park ski or skiing switch or spinning on an aft mounted powder ski and this becomes blatantly clear.

My issue with the Campbell Balancer was/is it does not take into account the effects of binding stand height differential/delta angle which affect fore/aft balance. It also uses a one position fits all kinda theory. As noted above park guys want a different position than a powder skier and the Campbell Balancer does not take preferences and other sagittal parameters into account. The ultimate answer is to put a demo binding on all your skis and experiment with mount position to find your own preference. You may find different positions suite different conditions and ski characteristics better than others. I don't know if it is still true but historically French made skis tended to place the mount position with the sweet spot more directly under boot center while Eastern Europe skis tended to place the sweet spot more forward of the boot center requiring a more forward projection to find the sweet spot.
 

Philpug

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The Campbell Balancer is even less accurate now that so many skis have different run and rises in the tips and tails, it is a tool from last century. Binding postions vary even more than from country to country and brand to brand, but we see it down to model to model within a brand.
 

cantunamunch

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Brrrr, now those would make for some cold toes!
I'm betting that somewhere in Germany there are socks for that. :P

I spent a lot of the day on Thursday modulating pressure underfoot because turn finish on @mishka 's MR87 was much more fun that way - and I chose to finish the day on those skis just so I could play with the sensation longer. I paid for it yesterday though. My boots have so much forward lean that ~5 hours of underfoot control left me with both arch and t. anterior cramps.
 

mishka

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sorry… But it was fun:)
I build a ramp angle into the skis. Some more than others. Personally I feel different sensation skiing on the more upright Krepton's compare to my old boots Atomic RT

I think this would be additional information to the discussion. Depends how skis made they might have some ramp angle build into them. I think many skis have flat section under the binding
 

pete

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nice tread ...

as noted prior in thread by many, but here with some empirical measures (maybe too noted prior) at link below:

" ... the racer's perception was that he had to 'work more' to initiate and complete his turns when he was skiing in the SOFT boot." (ISBN 978-78255-066-2) which sounds much the comparison made to automotive suspension.

btw, the publication looks rather interesting ...

https://books.google.com/books?id=e...e&q=ski boot force transmission, flex&f=false
 

James

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WheatKing raises the idea of pressure underfoot which might be off topic for “boot flex” (though related), but definitely on topic for the “skier development” portion of the question. Most of the time the interaction with the boot is expressed as using it as a lever to impart force to the ski. Learning how to manage the pressure under foot independently of cuff pressure is a skill I do not hear expressed very often; though, very much a part of the learned movements that Bob has described.

Can you move pressure fore & aft under foot while remaining cuff neutral?

Do you apply pressure to the front of the ski by applying pressure to the cuff, under foot, both, neither, sometimes, depends? If the answer is “Always ____”, is there maybe a bias??

I have come to think of binding fore/aft position adjustment to relate to the ski. Where is the sweet spot of the ski? Is the ski balanced or unbalanced? Most times I do not monkey with mount point, but I generally prefer a more traditional type ski with something close to a ball of foot over center of running surface and if close I can adjust pressure under foot to get the ski to respond as desired. I think last year or the year before I skied @FairToMiddlin Head Rally and did move the binding back 2cm, but that is the only ski I can recall not skiing at the mount point in a long time.

I know many that always start with their bindings a cm or two forward. If one has to move the bindings on every ski by default I might wonder if that is a skier or boot bias/deficiency. Does it matter? I wonder what @bud heishman thoughts are on binding mount position related to boot balancing?

Either way, still seems we would be best served to learn how to manage pressure under foot independent of cuff pressure.

Research the “Campbell Balancer” (critically) for ‘a theory’ on determining your optimal mount point. I believe John Howe had some thoughts on ski & skier interaction in Skiing Mechanics.

It seems to me that we should give respect to AmyPJ's perception that the cold, stiff condition of her boots was impairing her ability to ski well, when compared to what she had achieved on warmer days. A possibility that occurs to me is that under more average conditions, she was flexing into the tongues a bit to create the delta angle that put her into the stance that was most functional for her, but that when the boots were at their stiffest she could no longer do so. Might an alignment evaluation shed useful light on her predicament?

Remember Bob Barnes' advice as to one beneficial effect of a boot with a degree of flexibility--the ability to use ankle flexion "TO PROVIDE THE ULTIMATE PRECISION "FINE-TUNING" TO FORE-AFT BALANCE."

My experience has been, as we restrict flex and movement inside the boots, proper alignment on the sagittal plane become more critical. As we zero in on good sagittal alignment, small movements inside the boot become more consequential. A tighter fitting, stiffer boot requires less movement to transmit impulse to the skis.
As this evolution occurs, the ability to affect the skis with these more subtle movements inside the boot becomes more apparent. Watching good skiers, it becomes apparent the range of ankle flexion is not as important as is being in an accurately aligned detent stance to allow effective pressure management along the length of the skis as well as between the skis and the snow vertically. Stiffer boots require the skier posesses the skills to modify the flexion extension movements to remain in balance without flexing the ankle, while using the stiffness of the boot as more of a suspension system to combat higher turning forces. In other words the skier is not trying to flex the boot, rather the external forces created cause the boot to flex.

Binding placement is one of the four parameters of sagittal alignment and one I address last in the sequence. Binding placement will dictate stance and trajectory. The most obvious spectrum would be the extreme of a center mounted park ski vs. an aft mounted powder ski. The skier will intuitively adapt their stance and trajectory to the placement of the binding over the sweet spot of the ski. Try skiing powder on a center mounted park ski or skiing switch or spinning on an aft mounted powder ski and this becomes blatantly clear.

My issue with the Campbell Balancer was/is it does not take into account the effects of binding stand height differential/delta angle which affect fore/aft balance. It also uses a one position fits all kinda theory. As noted above park guys want a different position than a powder skier and the Campbell Balancer does not take preferences and other sagittal parameters into account. The ultimate answer is to put a demo binding on all your skis and experiment with mount position to find your own preference. You may find different positions suite different conditions and ski characteristics better than others. I don't know if it is still true but historically French made skis tended to place the mount position with the sweet spot more directly under boot center while Eastern Europe skis tended to place the sweet spot more forward of the boot center requiring a more forward projection to find the sweet spot.

These three posts cover most of this issue I believe. I'm starting to think that if your boot is set up properly in the sagital plane then too stiff is not really an issue. But it isn't easy to get there. So if you have a bunch of flex, or enough, you can compensate.

I'm currently skiing in a Lange ZC which basically has no flex at temps where snow is still snow. There's not enough forward lean for me. I cheat it by skiing it loose. The drawback is with a lot of push back from the snow there's play.

Key to whatever flex, but esp stiff, is to not lock up the ankle or foot in the boot. Do that and your skiing with a piece of wood at the end of your leg. Will destroy balance and greatly increase risk of injury. I also think you do want some "play" fore/aft at the top of the boot with the shin. I think David McPhail calls for about 14deg. Now booster strap may give you that. Rigid powerstrap really tight won't. His point afai understand is that play lets the soleus muscle activate and protects the knee as well as helping balance.
 

pete

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These three posts cover most of this issue I believe. I'm starting to think that if your boot is set up properly in the sagital plane then too stiff is not really an issue. But it isn't easy to get there. So if you have a bunch of flex, or enough, you can compensate.

I'm currently skiing in a Lange ZC which basically has no flex at temps where snow is still snow. There's not enough forward lean for me. I cheat it by skiing it loose. The drawback is with a lot of push back from the snow there's play.

Key to whatever flex, but esp stiff, is to not lock up the ankle or foot in the boot. Do that and your skiing with a piece of wood at the end of your leg. Will destroy balance and greatly increase risk of injury. I also think you do want some "play" fore/aft at the top of the boot with the shin. I think David McPhail calls for about 14deg. Now booster strap may give you that. Rigid powerstrap really tight won't. His point afai understand is that play lets the soleus muscle activate and protects the knee as well as helping balance.


while lacking in finesse and balance, my experience lends me to believe agree on these statements (three posts copied in Jame's post) and that it's really a personal preference. I moved from an inexpensive soft flex 3 buckle Rossi boot (maybe 80?) to a Nordica Patron Pro which is pretty stiff. Like all smart folks I got these because of a great price .. and in earnest, the last. at 98mm in a 27.5 they fit so well, snug I supplanted my concern they may be too stiff. (but man ... I have to motivate first to get them on!)

Anyhow, only skied them 15 or so times and the first 10 I can without question say they knocked me around. Again, I am no natural balance so my only thought is that I must be learning better center of balance out of the requirement verses a more forgiving flex of the Rossi boots.

Best thing for me the first times out were practicing and concentrating on being more neutral .. on some nice blue groomers. I know I was in the back seat a lot the first times out ... but I like to believe I learned some better balance out of the deal.

(found similar skill issues too with first time using 104's verses traditional 78mm waist skis, one can't cheat skiing them parallel and together verse my typical cheating/poor form)
 

AmyPJ

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These three posts cover most of this issue I believe. I'm starting to think that if your boot is set up properly in the sagital plane then too stiff is not really an issue. But it isn't easy to get there. So if you have a bunch of flex, or enough, you can compensate.

I'm currently skiing in a Lange ZC which basically has no flex at temps where snow is still snow. There's not enough forward lean for me. I cheat it by skiing it loose. The drawback is with a lot of push back from the snow there's play.

Key to whatever flex, but esp stiff, is to not lock up the ankle or foot in the boot. Do that and your skiing with a piece of wood at the end of your leg. Will destroy balance and greatly increase risk of injury. I also think you do want some "play" fore/aft at the top of the boot with the shin. I think David McPhail calls for about 14deg. Now booster strap may give you that. Rigid powerstrap really tight won't. His point afai understand is that play lets the soleus muscle activate and protects the knee as well as helping balance.
I think this is what I am discovering with my new Head B5s. 110 flex is pretty beefy for me at my current weight of 115 pounds but I can ski them, particularly the left one, pretty well and I appreciate the stability they provide. I'm very well-balanced sagitally in the left boot--the right one, don't ask. Still trying to figure it out, can't balance on it, it also happens to be the side that I busted up two years ago.

As far as not locking up the ankle or foot--I'm not sure how I feel about this, coming from the perspective as someone who is hypermobile (it's a real medical condition, and it SUCKS.) I totally agree with a Booster strap being a real holy grail and am glad I finally switched to one, which I put directly against the liner and underneath the boot shell. I feel that it does help make the flex much more progressive and natural AND allows for that little bit of play at the top of the boot.
 

James

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If your mobility in the ankle/foot is so bad, how do you walk? Do you have supportive shoes that prevent any movement?
 

AmyPJ

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If your mobility in the ankle/foot is so bad, how do you walk? Do you have supportive shoes that prevent any movement?
Of course not. James, the only thing I can tell you is to keep an open mind and know that you haven't walked a mile in my shoes. When I had a rheumatologist tell me the host of issues I've suffered over the years (multiple dislocated joints, etc.) that were all related at the minimum to hypermobility, at the worst Ehlers Danlos syndrome, I broke down in tears. Finally, someone who understood and could EXPLAIN that I'm not a total freakshow, but have an actual medical condition that very few others have. I guess a positive is I'm not prone to sprains, because my joints just kind of gumby around and go right back. Except the dislocated patella I've suffered twice in my left knee is causing a lot of arthritic issues, which sucks. I can do things with my hands that freak people out.

So, if you take those issues into account along with ridiculously low-volume feet, getting a boot to fit and support properly is a real challenge. I think a lot of people would give up mountain biking, and competitive equestrian, and skiing, if they had to work so much to make it work. Me? No way. A little determination can go a long way!
FWIW, my right foot is more flexible than my left...and my right boot is the one that gives me fits. (No pun intended.) Coincidence? I don't think so.
The struggle is real. But it doesn't stop me. It sure pisses me off at times, though!
 

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