Definition of Angulation and Inclination

[Smear]

Yup, agreed it’s best used as a balancing tool. Again, one **can create edging via angulating say at the hip, but initiating via foot tipping is the way to go imo. Create your edge angles from down low, then progressively balance over them. Keep foot tipping through the turn, and you will also need to keep adjusting you lateral and rotational balancing efforts with your upper...

zenny

Or keep foot tipping toward the end of the turn, and then start decreasing the foot tipping and eventually foot tipping in opposite direction while at the same time increasing hip angulation drastically, getting your com flowing over the path of the skis and into the next turn. So easy to think, but so hard to do...

 

[Jilly]

I've always though of inclination as banking...and if you're banking then the same is going to happen to you as did Eric Read racing today....slipped out!!

 

[Smear]

I've always though of inclination as banking...and if you're banking then the same is going to happen to you as did Eric Read racing today....slipped out!!

Banking always negative?

Banking: Inclining without angulation. Can be lots of good reasons to to that in the start of the turn. Can even be good reasons to do be inclining with reverse angulation in the start of the turn. Inclining without angulation in the second half of the turn however, can see no good use for that. Or?

 

[Magi]

Banking always negative?

Banking: Inclining without angulation. Can be lots of good reasons to to that in the start of the turn. Can even be good reasons to do be inclining with reverse angulation in the start of the turn. Inclining without angulation in the second half of the turn however, can see no good use for that. Or?

What's a good reason to start the turn with upper body lean instead of tipping the feet and legs?

 

[James]

Ligety starts these turns with lots of pure inclination, banking. You can see it on the still screen.^

 

[Smear]

Sliding the skis sideways with a light touch on the snow, waiting for the right moment, adjusting the steering angle, developing inclination to have more edge angle later in he turn.

And then BOOOOOOOM add lots of angulation to get the skis carving for the rest of the turn.

This is a skill way beyond my skill level. Once I start sliding I have a hard time getting the skis carving for the rest of the turn. But I would like to be alble to do that one day...

 

[Smear]

What's a good reason to start the turn with upper body lean instead of tipping the feet and legs?

When you say it like that in my mind it reads hip dumping, early abrupt hip angulation in the start of the turn without corresponding feet tipping.

But out of the context you are probably meaning leaning in without angulation or even with reverse hip angulation.in the start of the turn. A completely opposite action Sometimes language is difficult.

I once had a student in telemark instruction that I suggested to edge the skis more: Her reply was: "Does that mean I should ski closer to the edge of the ski hill" ;-)

 

[Jilly]

Turning from the lower body always. I guess when I think inclination it's during what should be the edging phase or apex to end of turn.

 

[dbostedo]

But I would like to be alble to do that one day...

But then you'd have to change your user names to "Smear.... wait for it.......... CARVE" or something.

 

[cantunamunch]

But then you'd have to change your user names to "Smear.... wait for it.......... CARVE" or something.

In the meantime there's 'Edgy Smear' - which sounds quite wicked if we let the connotations bubble a bit.

 

[James]

Turning from the lower body always. I guess when I think inclination it's during what should be the edging phase or apex to end of turn.

So middle to end?

Have a look at this sequence of Hirscher at Vail.
At images 7, 13, counting from the bottom right. What do you see?

 

[LiquidFeet]

I see what I've thought "inclination" meant, especially #13.
e.g. "Good" banking by racers in a hurry.

p.s. #13 looks like a white pass to me.

 

[JESinstr]

James, consider that your analysis is velocity dependent. What would these pictures show if Hirscher was only traveling at 5 mph? At that speed, would he be projecting his com the way he does at Mach 3?

 

[Jilly]

So I type and think better on my laptop.

So your saying 7 and 13 are inclination? I would call it moving to the turn. There is still some angulation there, He's not a stick. If only inclining you can't hold an edge.

 

[James]

I see what I've thought "inclination" meant, especially #13.
e.g. "Good" banking by racers in a hurry.

p.s. #13 looks like a white pass to me.

I agree 13 is a whitepass entry.
There may be some angulation in 7. It's hard to tell. Likely there's some in 1.

Next: In which images is inclination not present? There may actually be some since the angles aren't perfect, but very little.

James, consider that your analysis is velocity dependent. What would these pictures show if Hirscher was only traveling at 5 mph? At that speed, would he be projecting his com the way he does at Mach 3?

Well ok, but if one is an olympic speed skater going around the track there's more inclination than Joe Schmoe out for a public skate at the rink.

The degree of inclination is highly dependent on speed and radius of turn. We won't take this into physics at this point because the thread is already confusing people.

So I type and think better on my laptop.

So your saying 7 and 13 are inclination? I would call it moving into the turn.

That's banking too. Look at your definition of inclination again. What does it say about what you would call it?

. If only inclining you can't hold an edge.

No. Completely absurd.

 

[JESinstr]

JESinstr said: ↑
James, consider that your analysis is velocity dependent. What would these pictures show if Hirscher was only traveling at 5 mph? At that speed, would he be projecting his com the way he does at Mach 3?

Well ok, but if one is an olympic speed skater going around the track there's more inclination than Joe Schmoe out for a public skate at the rink.
The degree of inclination is highly dependent on speed and radius of turn. We won't take this into physics at this point because the thread is already confusing people.
.

Don't disagree one bit but you were challenging @Jilly 's assertion of where she felt inclination was occuring in her skiing. And as you have indicated it can be anywhere depending on speed and radius.
You are however, spot on that this thread is confusing people .
I admire you passion for the sport!

 

[Zentune]

There is inclination virtually throughout (line of action like we have discussed) with varying degrees of angulated segments in every image.

Banking an entire turn CAN cause loss of grip however (but it doesnt to have to) especially if, as a result, one becomes majorly inside ski biased. Let’s say you are totally riding your outside edge of your inside ski. Due to the nature of foot supination, a typically strong movement, the grf created is resisted or can be increased via the forming of the arch and the engagement of the windlass mechanism of which your first metatarsal head or your “ball of the foot” is part of. But since the reaction force is created on the little toe side of the ski instead, a constant “war” of tipping vs untipping will ensue...a potentially precarious situation.



zenny

 

[karlo]

Inclination. Meaning simply "lean," inclination in skiing refers to tipping your body into a turn for balance

Inclination: "The degree of lean of the imaginary line drawn through Base of Support and Centre of Mass.

Line of action- the imaginary line between the com and base of support.

might be helpful to think of inclination as a term defined relative to gravity

So, in this photo, there is inclination of the legs, no inclination of the upper body, but there is inclination of the imaginary line between com and base of support? Or, as for the latter, no inclination because the slope of the incline is not a slope relative to gravity?

 

[Zentune]

Don’t overthink it karlo, that’s the danger come exam time. Yes the mass is inclined in your photo (may be a tad hip-dumped?), but jesinter and James are merely saying that the line of action between the bos and the cm need not be of a centripetal origin, eg, you could be leaned in and skidding straight down the fall line, with no turning. An interesting point indeed.

zenny

 

[CalG]

Inclination is dependent on turn forces.
Angulation is in spite of turn forced