Definition of Angulation and Inclination

[karlo]

I need some help as I am getting ready for my PSIA II exam. I am reading the definitions in the Alpine Technical Manual.

angulation - Laterally tipping the body relative to the slope by creating angles between various body parts. It allows the skier to adjust edge angle and maintain balance toward the outside ski. Examples are hip angulation and knee angulation.

inclination - Any kind of tipping of a body part relative to slope.... the general term for any lateral movement of a skier toward the inside of a turn. A skier can tip different parts of the body to a different degree (angulation) or incline the entire body into the slope (banking)

Then, I look at this photo,

I see angulation of hip and knees. I see inclination of legs relative to slope toward the inside of the turn. I see slight inclination of the upper body. But, what is the "lateral tipping of the body" in the definition of angulation? What is meant by "body", as opposed to "body part"? If the upper body were completely upright relative to slope,,I would have said there is no inclination of the "body" on account of incredible angulation; i.e., I think of the "body" as the upper body.

 

[James]

You can have inclination of any part.
So in the above photo, the lower legs are inclined, and so is the torso- a little. And there is angulation.

Whole body inclination would be banking.

COM may be outside the body, as in your photo perhaps. There is no body part called COM. Thus one can't actually move their com, and yet they can affect where it is.

 

[LiquidFeet]

PSIA's use of "inclination" and the definitions they give for it and for "angulation" in that tech manual are confusing. James has it right, but it would have been better if PSIA writers had been more clear in their choice of words in the manual.

 

[James]

Well not to mention they used the words in one of the 5 fundamentals!
So, of course the clinic starts off with an argument on what "angulation" is.

 

[Nancy Hummel]

The night before my Level 2 MA exam, I felt confused and called Bob Barnes for clarification. He told me that different examiners have different understandings and definitions of inclination and angulation. We decided it would be better to describe body parts/positions and stay away from the jargon. Guess who my examiner was?
It was funny. He laughed when it was my turn and asked me if I was going to use the terms. I passed. Ha ha.

 

[JESinstr]

You mean they are inclined at different angles? You really only have two choices to talk about here, inclination and angulation.

In high performance turns, I think you will find that the legs are (in many instances) at different angles to the slope due to the dynamics of the different functions being performed by each leg

Regardless the only angle that matters is the one where the edge engages the surface.

 

[Uncle Louie]

As I learned it, it goes something like this (plain english here not the book definition)

Angulation occurs when the knee or hip or (knee & hip) angle changes with regard to the slope creating a new edge angle.That movement can be actively done (using muscle and /or bone movements to change the knee angle for example) or passive (Example-- If we are on a slightly edged ski and we can lighten the other foot the COM moves to the inside creating a new angle.)

Inclination is a bit more confusing.
If the torso is vertical but there is a significant edge angle there is no Inclination. Given that, if we see the torso "lean" to the inside it can be that angulation, by itself, is not sufficient to hold the skier on edge and stay in the turn. I don't think the body is vertical in the picture here.

Assuming that is the case, this is a case of both inclination and angulation occurring in the same turn.

Another example of Inclination would be "banking". If a skier uses his body to intentionally tip the upper body to the inside to create (or enhance) an edge angle that is banking. Banking is frowned upon and considered incorrect.

 

[Uncle Louie]

Knee Angulation (yes, I bunch of us here know this guy)

Hip Angulation and Inclination

A more dynamic view of Angulation and Inclination use together

Hip and Knee Angulation (look at the right leg) (No Inclination- the upper body is vertical)

 

[James]

^ They've broadened the def to basically say tipping of any body part relative to the slope.

One can't have angulation without inclination, but you can have inclination without angulation. Right?

 

[Uncle Louie]

^ They've broadened the def to basically say tipping of any body part relative to the slope.

One can't have angulation without inclination, but you can have inclination without angulation. Right?

If they did broaden the def as you mentioned, then yes.

Personally I don't agree that using hip angulation with a vertical torso would qualify as inclination. If that were the case why not just have knee inclination, hip inclination, knee & hip inclination and inclination ?

 

[Uke]

Seems like I remember someone arguing that inclination refers to the angle of the com to the snow and angulation is used to balance com against the platform thus created by the ski. Not the def I use.
uke

 

[James]

I see angulation of hip and knees. I see inclination of legs relative to slope toward the inside of the turn. I see slight inclination of the upper body. But, what is the "lateral tipping of the body" in the definition of angulation? What is meant by "body", as opposed to "body part"? If the upper body were completely upright relative to slope,,I would have said there is no inclination of the "body" on account of incredible angulation; i.e., I think of the "body" as the upper body

Well you're into the gray zone of wording. I suppose that's why "COM" is used, or was used before. As in Bob's illustration. Both pictures represent Inclination and Angulation -(they're the same picture) Inclination is illustrated with the center of mass inclined into the turn.

It's sad and annoying that epicski is gone, and its use as even a dead scroll is impossible. Lots of info was posted there over the years.
Look at this copying of one of @Bob Barnes post saved on skidivas.

Here's part:
Inclination. Meaning simply "lean," inclination in skiing refers to tipping your body into a turn for balance, something we do in many activities of motion--riding a bicycle, skating, even walking and running. More specifically, it refers to a movement of the center of mass toward the inside of a turn, with no implication as to the relative positions or movements of any parts of the body. In other words, you can incline while tall or short, and while angulated or not. Yes, we can talk about inclining specific parts of the body--shins, for example--but unless otherwise specified, "inclination" in general refers to the lean of the whole body (center of mass).

More:
http://www.theskidiva.com/forums/index.php?threads/angulation.12095/page-2


[QUOTE="James", post: 191304, member: 371]


One can't have angulation without inclination, but you can have inclination without angulation. Right? [/QUOTE]
Well if you stand on the skis and assume like a comma shape with the upper body, then you would.

 

[Chris Geib]

I like Joubert's bit and thinking about it would probably like to blend a bit from Bob's quote in @James

From Georges Joubert, Skiing An Art …A Technique, 1978, Page 271:
“Inclination is a pivoting of the body around a platform on the ground (for example an inclination up the hill or down the fall line in a traverse). There can be no inclination in the fore-aft plane...”

 

[Smear]

More specifically, it refers to a movement of the center of mass toward the inside of a turn, with no implication as to the relative positions or movements of any parts of the body. In other words, you can incline while tall or short, and while angulated or not. Yes, we can talk about inclining specific parts of the body--shins, for example--but unless otherwise specified, "inclination" in general refers to the lean of the whole body (center of mass).

Agree with the Bob Barnes quoted by James. If someone is taking about inclination with out further specification (like inlination of spesific body part) then I usually assume they are talking about inclination of the COM,

For angulation my preferred explanation is this: Putting your body into a shape that result in that the skis get a different edge angle than they would get from inclination of COM alone. Note that this is a "frozen in time" static description of what angulation is, it does not tell what happens next if you move a body part to modify angulation, it's not a pedagogic description for what it is used for in skiing or tell how to make a turn with higher edge angle.

Angulation can have a positive or negative contribution to the edge angle and since the net angulation is sum of what you do with different body part the net angulation can be zero even if individual body parts have angulation and then edge angle is the same as what you get from inclination above.

It's starting to get complicated when you want to quantify angulation of different parts of the body. The geometric relationship between body parts in degrees does not necessarily in degrees tell how much it contributes to modifying edge angle in degrees. One can make simplifications and assumptions to try to make a useful model. If interested have a a look at Robert C. Reid PhD thesis for an example of that.

But then we have two skis, and my head starts to spin...

 

[Kneale Brownson]

If you create edge angles, something is inclining. If your body parts are angular (as opposed to lined up straight), you are angulating.

 

[James]

I need some help as I am getting ready for my PSIA II exam. I am reading the definitions in the Alpine Technical Manual.

angulation - Laterally tipping the body relative to the slope by creating angles between various body parts. It allows the skier to adjust edge angle and maintain balance toward the outside ski. Examples are hip angulation and knee angulation.

inclination - Any kind of tipping of a body part relative to slope.... the general term for any lateral movement of a skier toward the inside of a turn. A skier can tip different parts of the body to a different degree (angulation) or incline the entire body into the slope (banking)

Then, I look at this photo,

I see angulation of hip and knees. I see inclination of legs relative to slope toward the inside of the turn. I see slight inclination of the upper body. But, what is the "lateral tipping of the body" in the definition of angulation? What is meant by "body", as opposed to "body part"? If the upper body were completely upright relative to slope,,I would have said there is no inclination of the "body" on account of incredible angulation; i.e., I think of the "body" as the upper body.

Compare with this illustration and the bolded part in the definiton from the glossary. What do you see?
This is the problem though with eliminating COM from the definition.

For reference, here's the definition from the glossary unedited.

Spoiler: Inclination

 

[LiquidFeet]

It's not easy to verbally describe skiing movements. Especially by committee.

 

[JESinstr]

If you create edge angles, something is inclining. If your body parts are angular (as opposed to lined up straight), you are angulating.

IMO PSIA should adopt something simple and profound like Kneale has written and leave it at that. The goal, as Kneale so aptly pointed out is the creation of edge angles. How we effectively create those edge angles is what every instructor needs to know and phrases like "inclinate this" and "angulate that" just don't cut it. Phrases built on words like tip,flatten, flex,extend, shorten, lengthen are what students can relate to and let the inclinations and angulations fall where they may.

 

[Chris V.]

It's not easy to verbally describe skiing movements. Especially by committee.

IMO PSIA should adopt something simple and profound like Kneale has written and leave it at that. The goal, as Kneale so aptly pointed out is the creation of edge angles. How we effectively create those edge angles is what every instructor needs to know and phrases like "inclinate this" and "angulate that" just don't cut it. Phrases built on words like tip,flatten, flex,extend, shorten, lengthen are what students can relate to and let the inclinations and angulations fall where they may.

It should be alarming, though not surprising, that basic, widely-used terms like these, used considerably in professional literature, should generate such lengthy discussion among presumably well-educated people. (One could find quite a few other examples of this.) I think I know what they mean. I'll leave it at that. At least, I have my own functional definitions. It's not terminology that I'll use much, if at all, in lessons. As JESinstr writes, better to break it down to fundamentals, and to teach based on those fundamentals.

 

[James]

It should be alarming, though not surprising, that basic, widely-used terms like these, used considerably in professional literature, should generate such lengthy discussion among presumably well-educated people. (One could find quite a few other examples of this.) I think I know what they mean. I'll leave it at that. At least, I have my own functional definitions. It's not terminology that I'll use much, if at all, in lessons. As JESinstr writes, better to break it down to fundamentals, and to teach based on those fundamentals.

True, but oversimplifying by committee, which is what was done, is just as bad, Simple with a detailed follow up would be good. Once you drill down, these things are complicated because the body is anything but simple.
In @Kneale Brownson def, that's fine, but one could just as easily say inclination is about balancing. Edge angle- what about powder? Maybe "platform" is better. And "something is inclining" in Kneales's post, which I like, is not "Inclination" in the old usage anyway. But Kneale's could be used as a followup explanation or example quite well.