Definition of Angulation and Inclination

[karlo]

ok, ok, after reading all this, here is my definitive definitions, for myself only.

angulation - creating angles between various body parts. It allows the skier to adjust edge angle and maintain balance toward the outside ski. Examples are hip angulation and knee angulation

Reference to lateral tipping of body relative to slope is eliminated. So, any angle of one part of the body to another is angulation.

No change to the definition of inclination as quoted in the OP.

But, just to be safe, I'll take the path chosen by @Nancy Hummel. At the exam, I will avoid any mention of the terms. And, if challenged on them, I'll just shrug. Can I do that, just shrug?

Much thanks to all who have shared their insights.

 

[James]

Oh, you're not done...

 

[Jilly]

ok, ok, after reading all this, here is my definitive definitions, for myself only.

angulation - creating angles between various body parts. It allows the skier to adjust edge angle and maintain balance toward the outside ski. Examples are hip angulation and knee angulation

Reference to lateral tipping of body relative to slope is eliminated. So, any angle of one part of the body to another is angulation.

No change to the definition of inclination as quoted in the OP.

But, just to be safe, I'll take the path chosen by @Nancy Hummel. At the exam, I will avoid any mention of the terms. And, if challenged on them, I'll just shrug. Can I do that, just shrug?

Much thanks to all who have shared their insights.

Been reading the CSIA manual?

Angulation: "The lateral angles formed between segments of the body."

Inclination: "The degree of lean of the imaginary line drawn through Base of Support and Centre of Mass. Used to balance against the external forces generated by turning."

And as part of our technical reference - "Upper and lower body separation allows for angulation to provide grip." Grip is the new key word in the CSIA!

 

[Zentune]

For me inclining is anytime a body part is tipped into the slope and/or the mass is inside the path of the skis, banking otoh is not diagnosed unless there is whole body lean that presents with inclination (obviously) carried from the fall line on, wherein one usually will lose grip as the forces get larger....I include reverse-angulation (like a “head-tipper”) in this definition of banking. You can whole body incline til just above the fall line and then angulate at the hip like a mother there in after and still make a decent turn finish with grip.

Angulation is when there is angle between any 2 body segments, and *could* be used for edge angle manipulation, but is much better saved for balancing over the ski(s) laterally, otherwise an unintentional hip dump could result (eg, “hey I can edge my skis simply by dropping my hip in side the new turn and it works!”)

Problem is it depends on who you ask so, keep it simple...

zenny

 

[razie]

Grip is the new key word in the CSIA!

grip <==> ski performance

 

[john petersen]

But, just to be safe, I'll take the path chosen by @Nancy Hummel. At the exam, I will avoid any mention of the terms. And, if challenged on them, I'll just shrug. Can I do that, just shrug? .

If you dont mention them, why would you be challenged on them?



staying away from technical jargon is a great idea.....using common language to show you know what you are talking about is the best course of action.

There are times for technical discussions, and usually we as instructors are the ones who are listening to the clinician and then asking questions.

If you slip up and mention some tech....you can own right up and admit you got caught, and then explain it in more simple terms.

JP

 

[LiquidFeet]

Karlo, the advice I got when I was going to my LII Skiing Exam, and especially my LII Teaching Exam, was not to bring up any technical terms at all. Use the language you'd use in a lesson.

Examiners don't like instructors stretching to understand technical jargon. If you use a technical term in order to sound knowledgeable, they'll question you to see if you really know what you're talking about and if you don't you'll dig a big failure hole and bury yourself in it.

I know you have already passed your Teaching Exam. You're in the east, so your bunch of examiners are the same as mine. You might consider not talking about inclination and angulation unless your examiner brings up the words, and in my experience most won't.

Are you asking about those terms because you are trying to strengthen your skiing to pass the exam, and you're reading the PSIA technical manual to get clues as to how to do that?

 

[James]

Angulation is when there is angle between any 2 body segments, and *could* be used for edge angle manipulation, but is much better saved for balancing over the ski(s) laterally, otherwise an unintentional hip dump could result (eg, “hey I can edge my skis simply by dropping my hip in side the new turn and it works!”)

Or...you've inclined too much, have too much inclination. You need to angulate to balance.

Been reading the CSIA manual?

Angulation: "The lateral angles formed between segments of the body."

Inclination: "The degree of lean of the imaginary line drawn through Base of Support and Centre of Mass. Used to balance against the external forces generated by turning."

 

[karlo]

I know you have already passed your Teaching Exam.

I haven't.

Are you asking about those terms because you are trying to strengthen your skiing to pass the exam, and you're reading the PSIA technical manual to get clues as to how to do that?

This past weekend, the terms were raised at a clinic held by my snowsports school. I didn't understand the answer, thinking that, as I now know, banking is inclination. So, I looked up the definitions of angulation and inclination in the Alpine Tech Manual, then got confused. I don't know what a Level II Teaching exam consists of, but if given a quiz to complete, I would certainly like to know what all the terms are. I agree, I would not want to use technical terms when demonstrating how I would teach.

 

[JESinstr]

Been reading the CSIA manual?

Angulation: "The lateral angles formed between segments of the body."

Inclination: "The degree of lean of the imaginary line drawn through Base of Support and Centre of Mass. Used to balance against the external forces generated by turning."

And as part of our technical reference - "Upper and lower body separation allows for angulation to provide grip." Grip is the new key word in the CSIA!

I like these descriptions.
So using them, I see many skiers adopting inclination to effect a bracing posture against the skis as the turn begins to develop. Based on the above Inclination description, are they bracing against the developing turning forces or are they preemptively bracing against the coming velocity created by the straight line pull of gravity down the hill?... or both. And what roll does fear/survival play in the answer? And what roll does fear/survival play in the creation of bad habits?

 

[Zentune]

Or...you've inclined too much, have too much inclination. You need to angulate to balance.

Yup, agreed it’s best used as a balancing tool. Again, one **can create edging via angulating say at the hip, but initiating via foot tipping is the way to go imo. Create your edge angles from down low, then progressively balance over them. Keep foot tipping through the turn, and you will also need to keep adjusting you lateral and rotational balancing efforts with your upper...

**this is why I don’t like the way it’s more closely associated with edge control, it can give people the wrong idea imo...see it often when working as a trainer.

zenny

 

[Jilly]

You need to angulate to balance and you need to angulate to edge.

When you angulate you are able to manage the forces that build up and resist the force. (as opposed to Star Wars!)

 

[LiquidFeet]

.... I don't know what a Level II Teaching exam consists of....

You can find the format here starting on page 15. Knowing exactly what to expect will help you prepare.
https://www.psia-e.org/download/ed/alpine-ed/AlpineExamGuide.pdf

 

[James]

Yup, agreed it’s best used as a balancing tool. Again, one **can create edging via angulating say at the hip, but initiating via foot tipping is the way to go imo. Create your edge angles from down low, then progressively balance over them. Keep foot tipping through the turn, and you will also need to keep adjusting you lateral and rotational balancing efforts with your upper...

**this is why I don’t like the way it’s more closely associated with edge control, it can give people the wrong idea imo...see it often when working as a trainer.

zenny

My point is what you're calling angulation I could call inclination. The line of action between the bos and the com. Throw the hips in you've moved your center of mass in.
You're foot tipping starts out as angulation. I suppose in the new def of inclination you are inclining parts down there also.

 

[Zentune]

You need to angulate to balance and you need to angulate to edge.

You do, however focusing at the foot level helps with stacking and nice early angle creation because of the tri-planar motion of the tc/subtalar joint complex. Tough to control that from up above, higher in the chain. Although yes as soon as you foot tip you create some small amount of angulation right away...

zenny

 

[Zentune]

My point is what you're calling angulation I could call inclination. The line of action between the bos and the com. Throw the hips in you've moved your center of mass in.
You're foot tipping starts out as angulation. I suppose in the new def of inclination you are inclining parts down there also.

I don’t see where we are in disagreement? My point is that saying “control edge angles through a combination of inclination and angulation” (1 of 5 psia fundamentals) is rather non-specific as to how. Well, I suppose they all are lol!

zenny

 

[JESinstr]

My point is what you're calling angulation I could call inclination. The line of action between the bos and the com. Throw the hips in you've moved your center of mass in.
You're foot tipping starts out as angulation. I suppose in the new def of inclination you are inclining parts down there also.

And this is why we can't have consensus on this topic

 

[tch]

....and I might add now, having mistakenly clicked on this thread thinking I might learn something....is why many of us recreational skiers avoid discussions or conversations about technique. You guys sound like a bunch of philosophy graduate students arguing about epistemological terms.

Sorry.

 

[Zentune]

^We are all learning here, can’t learn without discussion

zenny

 

[James]

And this is why we can't have consensus on this topic

It's not about consensus, it's about understanding. These terms are not completely separate. There's huge overlap. Geez, Joubert 40-50 years went into far more detail on these matters.

The problem with the new definition of inclination is it leaves out the most important part -inclining the com, and the line of action from the base of support. That's what skiing is really all about.
In favor of just saying inclining any body part. But, apparently people can digest that in a couple minutes and move on.

However, since one of the 5 fundamentals involves controlling edge angle through inclination and angulation, it would be good to have some understanding beyond memorizing what it says in the glossary.

....and I might add now, having mistakenly clicked on this thread thinking I might learn something....is why many of us recreational skiers avoid discussions or conversations about technique. You guys sound like a bunch of philosophy graduate students arguing about epistemological terms.

Sorry.

There's actually some good info here. Just read the Csia definition and look at Bob's picture posted above.

Sorry, but this has nothing to do with teaching you personally. I'm sure you'd be delighted with a physics discussion of centrifigul force. The last one, on epic, had two phd's in physics at logger heads calling each other idiots.