Can you carve ice?

[Jamt]

I contend that ski choice, and edge condition is secondary to attitude and commitment. No doubt experience and familiarity plays heavily in the equation.
"The difficult becomes easy with practice."

Agree, but they are not independent. We tell all our racers and parents that they must ALWAYS have very sharp edges, otherwise they don't learn to trust the edges. If you don't trust your edges it is pretty difficult to have "attitude and commitment".

 

[oldschoolskier]

Couple of replies in one, straight skis do hold on ice. I know and because I skied them til a few years are ago. Yes they do require a proper tune (definitely no detunes).

A well tuned pair of race or near-race skis to carving on ice is like a set of studded Hakkapeliittas to driving on ice. It's not a replacement for skill; it's not needed; but it sure increases the range what you can do. You can turn a lot harder and stop a lot sooner.

There comes a point in terms of how hard you have to turn where your skill will limit what you can do purely carving. That's why if you look at any local race track the snow around the gates is polished by skiers not carving a pure arc (but still making the turn). Sometimes it's just easier to say the heck with it and scrape by.

Your comment at the end brings forth the reason that some need to tune more often. Instead of using correct technique to carve it you slide it wearout the edges and never seem to get a bite in these conditions. Any time you here sliding you are scrubbing of speed. Yes I slid occasionally, but is to scrub speed because I have exceed my limits, nothing to do about not being able to, more to do with exceeding my risk/benefit value as the major of error reduce to zero vs my abilities.

As to tunes, a correctly tuned edge stays sharp longer, applies to tools and applies to skis. If you have a burr (and yes they can be on either base or side) and don’t remove it you ski will get dull quicker. For those that don’t understand this please read some books on sharpening tools it will take the magic/mystery out of sharpening skis and put the true science into it. The ones for wood working are written on a more basic level (softer material so more howto and why without to much theory), the ones for metal tend to include a lot more information (theory) likely well beyond what most need and can be confusing.

A bad tune will make even the best skier unable to ski ice. To think otherwise would be foolish.

This is the truth!! No wiser words have been spoken.

Back on Epic there was a thread and the phrase “You can’t ski, ice just proves it” was used. The nice answer is if you have a great tune and still have issues something is still missing/wrong in your bag of skills. There is no simpler answer than this.

 

[Guy in Shorts]

Love skiing ice. Nasty New England blue ice protects many of our best lines keeping out the unworthy.

 

[Pdub]

I have more specific advice. Forgive my non-technical explanation:

1. The hip to torso angle is key. In other words, upright torso but angulated femur. Our race coaches tell the kids to imagine trying to squish a doughnut on the outer side of their outer hips. This helps transmit downward pressure on the inner edge of the outer ski, so important in holding your edge on an icy race course. I don't teach so I'm not sure if this is what is referred to as angulation. The common mistake of leaning into the hill (which looks great to untrained eyes) with legs and torso lined up straight, even with decent edge angles, is deadly on an icy course. We race dads call it "leaning" and it always results in a fall or a lot of sliding around on the ice.

2. A -framing is another enemy of carving on ice. Racers are sometimes told to "drop their inner knee" to correct this. It makes for a more powerful turn and definitely enhances your hold on the ice. Gotta separate your knees a bit.

3. A corollary of 1 and 2, you've gotta put your weight on your outer ski.

4. Sharp skis of course. Most shops can't properly tune for New England ice, and tuning needs to be done every day or two when it's really firm. So you really have to learn to do it yourself if you ski frequently in the Northeast, and it takes a lot effort. After 6 years with 3 kids racing, I'm still learning. One common piece of bad advice is that it's good enough to just touch up the edges with a fine stone after a day on the ice. Not true! If the edges are dull, you need to take a little metal off. This requires a file, or at least a lot of pressure with a 100 stone, then the usual stone progression.

5. Also helps to have race-oriented or race-inspired skis with less than 85 mm underfoot, but no need for real race skis.

6. When it's really blue ice and nothing works, be light on your skis, take a little pressure off, glide a bit.

7. Be wary of tuning and technical advice from anyone knows nothing about racing. Especially out West, where the only ice anyone seems to ski is on the race hill. Some get it and some don't. Plenty of nice-looking skiers at the great hills out west are ripping up the soft stuff but they avoid hard snow. Often it's because they are leaning (see #1) and can't hold an edge on ice. A great skier should enjoy all conditions (spoken like a true Easterner!!)


Apologies if this has been said, but I don't think I read a post that put it in these layman's terms. It's just my interpretation of the great race coaching my kids have gotten over the years, and some instructors may take issue. Focusing on these points has definitely enhanced my skiing.

 

[slowrider]

2. A -framing is another enemy of carving on ice. Racers are sometimes told to "drop their inner knee" to correct this. It makes for a more powerful turn and definitely enhances your hold on the ice. Gotta separate your knees a bit.

Does this mean drop the inner knee to inside?

 

[Pdub]

I always interpreted this as dropping your inner knee towards the snow, just a bit. I could be wrong.

 

[slowrider]

Exactly. Thanks. Being a Western skier I need all the help I can get. ;-)

 

[markojp]

7. Be wary of tuning and technical advice from anyone who lives west of the Mississippi.

Let's gently correct this by saying, 'don't trust tuning and race advice from those who don't know anything about racing'. You'll note this has NOTHING to do with geography. There are way too many wc starters and coaches with western roots and home bases, and way too many of us in the west with eastern racing roots to be propagating the 'eastern uber alles' poo.

 

[Pdub]

markojp said:

Let's gently correct this by saying, 'don't trust tuning and race advice from those who don't know anything about racing'. You'll note this has NOTHING to do with geography. There are way too many wc starters and coaches with western roots and home bases, and way too many of us in the west with eastern racing roots to be propagating the 'eastern uber alles' poo.

Point well taken, there are a ton of awesome western-bred racers. My only experience with ski shops and skiers generally out west is non-racing, whereas back east I am fully enmeshed in racing culture. I edited my post.

 

[markojp]

markojp said:

Let's gently correct this by saying, 'don't trust tuning and race advice from those who don't know anything about racing'. You'll note this has NOTHING to do with geography. There are way too many wc starters and coaches with western roots and home bases, and way too many of us in the west with eastern racing roots to be propagating the 'eastern uber alles' poo.

Point well taken, there are a ton of awesome western-bred racers. My only experience with ski shops and skiers generally out west is non-racing, whereas back east I am fully enmeshed in racing culture. I edited my post.

Apples and oranges.