Can you carve ice?

[slowrider]

@Scruffy
This works.

You want to be light on your edges on ice, esp the top of the turn and until you set your edge and develop a platform for the edge in the ice. Move Pressure from ball of foot to your big toe as you come into the fallline. You want to smoothly and dynamically manage the resultant pressure building by flexing the inside leg, and using body angulation to "stand" on the outside ski. No park and ride, keep it dynamic all the way through to the transition.

 

[Rod9301]

@Scruffy
This works.

You want to be light on your edges on ice, esp the top of the turn and until you set your edge and develop a platform for the edge in the ice. Move Pressure from ball of foot to your big toe as you come into the fallline. You want to smoothly and dynamically manage the resultant pressure building by flexing the inside leg, and using body angulation to "stand" on the outside ski. No park and ride, keep it dynamic all the way through to the transition.

Wait, are you saying weight on the ball of the foot, it even big toe?

What's wrong with weight under the arch?

 

[slowrider]

No one said it was wrong. At the level of skiers here do you need to spell it out.

 

[karlo]

the skis started to break free.

I think a big part of successfully skiing ice is acceptance of skis breaking free, and even embracing it. So what does that mean? It means one's core is strong and purposefully traveling in a smooth arc, even if that arc is not the original intended path on account of the skis breaking free. And it also means one holds to the dynamic pattern of movement one intended if the skis break free. So, say you are intending a certain gradual increase and decrease of pressure through the intended turn, through an intended increase and decrease of angulation, and through an intended extension outwards and retraction inwards of the legs. Well, if the skis break free, your control of those motions are unperturbed. Imagine if you were flying through the air, without the skis on snow at all, no support. Go through all the motions, retain through use of the core the upper body position through the entire arc of the turn. Then, regardless of how well sharpened your skis are, or how hard the ice is, you will carve through the turn and be ready for the next.

imo, the idea of depending on how sharp one's skis are, puts one at a mental disadvantage from the very start. One relies on the equipment, rather than develop and rely on the skills, technique, and body/mental discipline.

 

[oldschoolskier]

Having read through the post @Josh Matta is on the right track. Skills are skills, regardless of the speed or lack of it. Same applies to conditions (or ice or not ice). If in one application your skills work yet in another they don’t your skills aren’t correct. Pure and simple.

In Epic it was said “You can’t ski, ice just proves it!”

A correct equipment setup is required, but given that success or failure is determined by how good you are at your skills

 

[Josh Matta]

imo, the idea of depending on how sharp one's skis are, puts one at a mental disadvantage from the very start. One relies on the equipment, rather than develop and rely on the skills, technique, and body/mental discipline.

A bad tune will make even the best skier unable to ski ice. To think otherwise would be foolish.

 

[Chris Walker]

A bad tune will make even the best skier unable to ski ice. To think otherwise would be foolish.

Truth! Sure skills are paramount, but If anyone doubts the need to have proper, well-tuned equipment in order to carve on ice, just look at the video of Diier Cuche's final run. He skied a WC giant slalom course on vintage equipment, and can't get them to bite at all. Of course there's more than just the tune going on here (I don't even know if those skis had edges), but this is one of the most technically proficient skiers in the world, and all his technique isn't helping him carve on ice.

 

[karlo]

I was referring to mindset, and in the context of recreational skiing, not racing. So, certainly don't detune the skis. Me, I tune once a year, unless I really screw up the edges. Yes, I'll deburr a bit if needed. I definitely do not go out of my way to get an "ice-skiing tune". The typical 1-degree/3-degree factory angles work for me in any condition.

Oh, and I do not get bad tunes

 

[Jamt]

A bad tune will make even the best skier unable to ski ice. To think otherwise would be foolish.

Exactly, a 0.2/6 ski polished with 4000 diamond can hardly be compared to a 1/2 ski that the rental shop sharpened in a robot two weeks ago.

 

[Jamt]

I was referring to mindset, and in the context of recreational skiing, not racing. So, certainly don't detune the skis. Me, I tune once a year, unless I really screw up the edges. Yes, I'll deburr a bit if needed. I definitely do not go out of my way to get an "ice-skiing tune". The typical 1-degree/3-degree factory angles work for me in any condition.

Oh, and I do not get bad tunes

If you are a serious skier you should really reconsider your tuning frequency. You never know when you are going to hip an ice patch.
I use a machine and it only takes 1 minute to tune the edges. I do it at least a few times a week when the conditions are hard.

 

[Smear]

This being the season of low snow and limited terrains, I found myself skiing groomers quite a bit more even in my trip west. This reminds me this isn't an unique experience. There had been days in my past trip when off-piste was just too crappy to venture into and I was force to amuse myself on the groomer. Though usually due to the low skier traffics, it's rare the groomers are HARD as ice as in the east. I'm slowly acquiring a liking of slicing through soft edgeable packed powder. Whether that qualifies as carving, is anybody's guess.

Still, I wonder if it's time I round off my skill repertoire by adding slick groomers to the mix. After all, I do get a lot of opportunity to practice near home.

So, not exactly ICE. And not necessarily limited to pure carving. Just any well controlled, fun way of conquering, even possibly enjoying the groomer, even when the fresh snow had been skied off and the surface slowly turning to something resembling ice...?

Sound's like you are ready to start enjoy another aspect of skiing

15 years ago I was a mostly backcountry skiing telemarker that occasionally used lifts on powder days and low visibility days. Thought of skiing groomers as kind of lame but necessary practice for real skiing performed in the backcountry or at least off piste. Going to the hill on a day when the groomers would be icy and the off piste would be hard refrozen stuff would be considered as a waste of time and money.

Now it's opposite. If there is a real cycle of rain and solid freeze then I do everything I can to get time to head to the hill. I live in a region that doesn't get real nice smooth hardpack/ice very often. We get some hardpack/ice inbetween soft piles but that not the same. So when smooth hardpack is on, then it's time to play.

On soft groomers the snow will break free. You have to be gentle. On real hardpack once the technique is decent there is like there is no limit to how much forces you can create through turning and try to withstand. Ski down a stretch of blue groomer and get completely exhausted. I really enjoy that feeling. Makes our little hill in the woods seem so much steeper and longer and more of a real challenging playground.

Speed and crowds seem to be a concern. Get your self a pair of narrow waisted short radius skis (say 15m or below). Start with the green and blue slopes.

For combination of hardpack/ice and soft piles I don't enjoy the short radius skis as much. With longer radius turns the impact of loosing grip on the piles is less disturbing. But whenever I need to limit the quiver to two pair of skis, then many offpiste/freeride skis will double up OK as as long turn groomer ski for piles/hardpack. But they are a horrible replacement for a short radius groomer ski. So I would start with a short radius groomer ski.

Still, I wonder if it's time I round off my skill repertoire by adding slick groomers to the mix. After all, I do get a lot of opportunity to practice near home.

Considered getting a season pass for a hill close to home? For me that was a large part of what changed my view of skiing icy hardpack. Going to the hill in "bad conditions", no loss with the season pass can always head home if it's not fun, and finding out that "hey this is actually fun". Frequent practice for not necessarily too long each time is also a great way of building the skills needed.

 

[Wilhelmson]

Maybe think about why you can't carve ice.

I'm usually pretty confident on steep ice, icy moguls, etc. Not exactly technically proficient, but very capable. However, this year I mysteriously lost the edge. I can still handle icy moguls and trees pretty well because they force me to be more dynamic, but my straight up carving has gone to hell.

A few external factors could be that due to recurring back issues, I am doing more cardio and weights and less pullups, pushups, situps, and crunches. Maybe I'm missing the core strength I've had the last few years, although my legs are stronger than ever. Also for whatever reason my ankles seem less flexible than usual.

These factors might not be a big deal for people with a lot of training, but I've always relied on physical ability to compensate for a lack of technique, so maybe this is catching up with me.

Take some lessons, do some core work, and hit the ice. No pain no gain.

 

[WheatKing]

I can carve ice.. however.. last night just wasn't feeling it.. and it was crappy ice, rock hard choppy full of frozen chicken heads ice from ice clogged snow guns.. and i haven't touched up my edges in.. well.. it's been a while.. just wasn't worth the effort.. so I went and watched my 5yr old in lessons on the bunny hill.. much more rewarding.

 

[Rod9301]

I think most people in ice so z turns, and the slide at a 45 degree to the next turn.

My solution is to keep shortening the inside leg, which keeps me turning and rely finishing the turn.

 

[karlo]

(I don't even know if those skis had edges), but this is one of the most technically proficient skiers in the world, and all his technique isn't helping him carve on ic

Wow, nice video. I don't think that was ice, and he still couldn't hold an edge. Goes to show, we are all cheating.

a 0.2/6 ski polished with 4000 diamond

ok, ok, I'll try it. Got the perfect ski with which to do it. I've been wondering what to do with my Superspeeds that have sat for years in my basement. Looking forward to it.

 

[Doug Briggs]

Truth! Sure skills are paramount, but If anyone doubts the need to have proper, well-tuned equipment in order to carve on ice, just look at the video of Diier Cuche's final run. He skied a WC giant slalom course on vintage equipment, and can't get them to bite at all. Of course there's more than just the tune going on here (I don't even know if those skis had edges), but this is one of the most technically proficient skiers in the world, and all his technique isn't helping him carve on ice.

No but he made it down with controlled sliding, albeit sideways most of the time. In another thread that was about chatter I made the point that if you can't get a grip, you can still manage the direction and speed you are going with your edges in most conditions you'll find on-piste even if the edges are dull.

 

[François Pugh]

A well tuned pair of race or near-race skis to carving on ice is like a set of studded Hakkapeliittas to driving on ice. It's not a replacement for skill; it's not needed; but it sure increases the range what you can do. You can turn a lot harder and stop a lot sooner.

There comes a point in terms of how hard you have to turn where your skill will limit what you can do purely carving. That's why if you look at any local race track the snow around the gates is polished by skiers not carving a pure arc (but still making the turn). Sometimes it's just easier to say the heck with it and scrape by.

 

[jack97]

Hard pack and frozen granular brings out your flaws that hero snow would otherwise cover up. IMO, missing from all this is the turn transition, one has to get the edge engaged to make any of the types turns or tactics mentioned. I've seen a PSIA E examiner go over this one topic for the whole session at Cannon when the place was normally frozen granular back in the day.

 

[James]

Me, I tune once a year, unless I really screw up the edges. Yes, I'll deburr a bit if needed.

Well that's perfectly acceptable if you ski one day a year. And ok for two.
Otherwise, must be some pretty soft snow.

 

[CalG]

My observation on this topic has been that of a significant difficulty many skiers have transitioning out of "survival mode".

Visualize a typical skier's first reaction when encountering "Eastern Firm" , AKA "blue ice". At the first slip on the hard surface, the natural reaction is to go flat footed with equal weight, in an upright and most often, stiff posture. (Go ahead, check out your first 5 steps on an ice skating rink while wearing street shoes. You will observe yourself demonstrating all these inappropriate attitudes).

This instinctive flattening of the skis takes place even when wanting angulation to engage the edges and effect a carved turn.
An "Inner Battle", with instinct winning.
Not unlike leaning back into the hill , when reaching down the steep slope is the best prescription for success.

I contend that ski choice, and edge condition is secondary to attitude and commitment. No doubt experience and familiarity plays heavily in the equation.
"The difficult becomes easy with practice."

Seek out the "ice" whenever you can. Make it your objective. It is found so frequently on Saturday and Sunday afternoons, one may as well become friends.