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What to do with old 35M GS Skis?

Primoz

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They actually freeski well.
That's what I have been telling from day one, and very few people believed me or agreed with me, including one or two top 15 WC guys :D So what to do with them? I don't know, I'm gonna keep them until I get current 30m model for season and not just for test day or two. I didn't check yet with my "supplier" if I have pair waiting for me already or not, but I'm in no hurry, as I really loved old useless 35m planks, so it won't hurt if I keep on skiing on them for another month or two. :)
 

Muleski

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Agree ^^^^. I had so many "informed" people telling me they sucked. Including guys paid to race on them! A year ago our son said that he was going to pick up "a number of pairs", free, from his guys. He's a coach. I asked "Why?" and he asked if I had actually skied a pair. No, I just assumed.
He came East for a race series or two. When it was over, he handed me a pair of Nordicas and said "try these on a nice firm day with no crowd. You'll be surprised and smiling."
He was right. If you have the skill {that sounds arrogant, don't know how else to put it}, to ski them....a really nice, fun ride. Some that have been broken in, not down....perfect for me.

Not for everybody. Lots out there. Dirt cheap.
 

1chris5

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This is a great discussion. I am intrigued about the 35m FIS ski. This discussion has demystified this racing ski for me. I'm going to keep my out for one and pick up if the price is right. I think it will be a ski that can take me to another level. I need a second ski to take the pressure off my one ski quiver anyway. Cheers
 

oldschoolskier

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Any good race ski always has a benefit if you are willing to work it.

The difference is that as a top end race ski it must match the course set and the skier, as a top end recreation “racer” ski it just has to match or exceed your requirements.

Find that fit at little or no cost you laugh all the way to the hill and bank. On top of that it’s fun to get the looks “how the hell do you ski that” followed by “oh, that’s how” after they see you ski.

Remember we are skiers and if can be skied we can ski it.
 

François Pugh

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Those skis are absolutely useless, especially the Fischer or Head ones. Don't worry though, if you send them to me, I'll make sure they are properly disposed of; they make the perfect ski to fill the gap in my quiver between my recreational GS skis and my antique SGs.:D
 

Swede

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On top of that it’s fun to get the looks “how the hell do you ski that” followed by “oh, that’s how” after they see you ski.

Hopefully ogsmile
All good things said, it is a ski that needs quite some speed to operate. If you know that and that's what you want -- a bargain. No a steal.
 

Wolfski

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I'm intrigued as well, why is it the they're not fun to freeski on? GS race skis have always(IMO) been a blast to ski on
 

Muleski

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Perhaps this will help.

The skis that we are talking about, men's 195cm 35M radius GS skis , were the skis mandated by the FIS change in regulations a few years ago. It has since been changed again, mandating a minimum radius of 30M. The main reason, is that even those skiing on the World Cup {that would be none of us, or close, IMO} could not really cleanly navigate down a typical WC course set. Hence all of the discussion about skidding turns, "stivoting", needing enormous strength and timing to force the ski into a smaller turn shape. The guys racing on the skis did not love them, shall we say. And the end of last season, I had a couple of USST skiers tell me that they "never want to see those F****** skis again!" And a few pairs made ceremonious entrances into dumpsters.

Now, the fact is that if you are a very skilled skier, this can work.. There is no way to understate that. IF you ski in modern race technique, and are fit and strong, you might enjoy an occasion free ski on them. But you are going to need to be comfortable making big turns, and initiating them. Turns that most folks here may have never made, and that I would venture to say most would incorrectly describe as SG size turns. Real carved turns, with high edge angles, and a proper release. The skis come alive and work at speed. You know when you get aggravated at the ski academy kids, who blast by on their GS skis, free skiing fast? Tack another 15mph on these. These were built to be a one trick pony, and free skiing them in many instances would not be so responsible. Skiing them as they are not designed to be skied, CAN be done, but that's ugly and not so good. No fun at all.

You'll also need a LOT of space. I ski these on one or two hills. One is where the US Nationals have been held countless times, the most vertical in the East. It's wide open, buffed, and I will on ski it on these skis mid week, when it is essentially empty, or close. No chance on a weekend for me.

I've always had a number of pairs of race skis in the closet. And I have a lot available to me. When the 27M skis were no longer "FIS Legal", I stopped free skiing the big boys, as the first skis built were brutal. Many improved in recent years. I have a pair of these now, and a pair of 27M rule skis that I would guess are more like a 29-30M ski. 191cm. The difference is very, very substantial.

I would hate to see folks jumping to the conclusion that because these are available dirt cheap on the used market, and because "I used to love my old race skis. My Volkl P10's, my 188cm 27M Fischers, my whatevers.......", that these are something that many people would enjoy. Or that these would somehow help them develop as a skier. No chance. Nor are these the solution because you're a larger guy.

Then again we have people who claim to love to free ski on legitimate SG skis, and on DH boards. To each his own, and it's your choice.

My son said "try these", because he knows that I can still ski, and because he knew where and when I might ski them. I of course had heard so much chatter to the contrary that I doubted him.

99.8% of the time I much prefer my 180cm Head i.Speed Pro. Fits the space and turn shape so much better, and still is a race like ride. That ski is pretty much purpose built to free ski. Not to race. I have a pair of WC {real like skied on the WC} 30M 193cm Skier Cross skis, which are essentially a WC GS build, and I will pretty much ski those very rarely. The WC GS 35M has another gas pedal.

Now saying all that, in the right conditions, right pilot, they are a really fun and exhilarating ride. Just think about watching a men's WC GS on TV, and realizing that you're going to be needing more room, and will be making in general bigger turns. That's why a few people have suggested them as a potential SG ski for a master, or a U16. Not that I agree, but it's because of the turn shape and speed.

Just my $.02. There is a reason why they are being given away.
 
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ScotsSkier

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Muleski, absolutely correct and timely advice!

For anyone not reasonably skilled in modern race technique and able to properly drive the tip and lay the ski over at a high edge angle, these will feel like a 2*4. Just because they are a great deal and can be great fun, with the correct skill set, does not make them a great option for everyone. No matter how cheap, they are not worth it if they are unskiable by someone. ( And it should not be thought that because someone skis high 20s radius wide ski that these will be somehow similar!!!)
 

razie

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@Muleski is right. Also, to note that the year and manufacturer are very important if contemplating these skis. Some cheap crap is still crap. When the rule was first introduced, the 2014 skis I believe, were mostly crap. Head nailed it and I don't remember who else. In time they all got better and the technology that made it now into the 30m skis has improved considerably, but the initial models were mostly poor.

Why racers dislike them for racing is because they do not forgive poor technique and in a course, they do not forgive... period! Making a 35m ski carve a 26m radius is not for the faint of heart... let alone a series of 26-30m turns...

Also, the 30m skis of today are far better than the 27m skis of a hew years ago, having benefited from the technological advances that went into the 35m skis.
 

1chris5

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Perhaps this will help.

The skis that we are talking about, men's 195cm 35M radius GS skis , were the skis mandated by the FIS change in regulations a few years ago. It has since been changed again, mandating a minimum radius of 30M. The main reason, is that even those skiing on the World Cup {that would be none of us, or close, IMO} could not really cleanly navigate down a typical WC course set. Hence all of the discussion about skidding turns, "stivoting", needing enormous strength and timing to force the ski into a smaller turn shape. The guys racing on the skis did not love them, shall we say. And the end of last season, I had a couple of USST skiers tell me that they "never want to see those F****** skis again!" And a few pairs made ceremonious entrances into dumpsters.

Now, the fact is that if you are a very skilled skier, this can work.. There is no way to understate that. IF you ski in modern race technique, and are fit and strong, you might enjoy an occasion free ski on them. But you are going to need to be comfortable making big turns, and initiating them. Turns that most folks here may have never made, and that I would venture to say most would incorrectly describe as SG size turns. Real carved turns, with high edge angles, and a proper release. The skis come alive and work at speed. You know when you get aggravated at the ski academy kids, who blast by on their GS skis, free skiing fast? Tack another 15mph on these. These were built to be a one trick pony, and free skiing them in many instances would not be so responsible. Skiing them as they are not designed to be skied, CAN be done, but that's ugly and not so good. No fun at all.

You'll also need a LOT of space. I ski these on one or two hills. One is where the US Nationals have been held countless times, the most vertical in the East. It's wide open, buffed, and I will on ski it on these skis mid week, when it is essentially empty, or close. No chance on a weekend for me.

I've always had a number of pairs of race skis in the closet. And I have a lot available to me. When the 27M skis were no longer "FIS Legal", I stopped free skiing the big boys, as the first skis built were brutal. Many improved in recent years. I have a pair of these now, and a pair of 27M rule skis that I would guess are more like a 29-30M ski. 191cm. The difference is very, very substantial.

I would hate to see folks jumping to the conclusion that because these are available dirt cheap on the used market, and because "I used to love my old race skis. My Volkl P10's, my 188cm 27M Fischers, my whatevers.......", that these are something that many people would enjoy. Or that these would somehow help them develop as a skier. No chance. Nor are these the solution because you're a larger guy.

Then again we have people who claim to love to free ski on legitimate SG skis, and on DH boards. To each his own, and it's your choice.

My son said "try these", because he knows that I can still ski, and because he knew where and when I might ski them. I of course had heard so much chatter to the contrary that I doubted him.

99.8% of the time I much prefer my 180cm Head i.Speed Pro. Fits the space and turn shape so much better, and still is a race like ride. That ski is pretty much purpose built to free ski. Not to race. I have a pair of WC {real like skied on the WC} 30M 193cm Skier Cross skis, which are essentially a WC GS build, and I will pretty much ski those very rarely. The WC GS 35M has another gas pedal.

Now saying all that, in the right conditions, right pilot, they are a really fun and exhilarating ride. Just think about watching a men's WC GS on TV, and realizing that you're going to be needing more room, and will be making in general bigger turns. That's why a few people have suggested them as a potential SG ski for a master, or a U16. Not that I agree, but it's because of the turn shape and speed.

Just my $.02. There is a reason why they are being given away.
Awesome advice. I've never been one to touch a hot burner when told not to, except now I really want to ski them. Cheers
 

Wolfski

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I on the other hand always touched the hot burner and have the scars too. SO if I get this right they're just a race ski with a larger carve radius that demands forward pressure, steering and extreme angulation that ends up forcing a "stivoting" turn?
Sounds like racing/skiing on old straights race skis to me
 

1chris5

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I on the other hand always touched the hot burner and have the scars too. SO if I get this right they're just a race ski with a larger carve radius that demands forward pressure, steering and extreme angulation that ends up forcing a "stivoting" turn?
Sounds like racing/skiing on old straights race skis to me
I love this thread! @Wolfski just reminded me that I may be the one forum member uniquely qualified to ski these recreationally. I stopped skiing in the mid '90s (backcountry every day at The Big Mountain). Didn't pick up again until 5 years ago when Homeschooling our children (barely knew what a shaped ski was); my wife suggested skiing during the week as gym type class for kids. I picked up my Dynastar Coupe du Monde SLs (circa '88) and skied once a week with my kids and wife on those boards. It was a blast! I'm not sure what a Stivot is but I bet I was doing it. My thought is, I am much less immune to the faerie magick that these new shaped skis have enscorceled the ski community. I don't care if I look great as long as I am having fun with my family (eh, I can A frame it); the price might be right for a second pair of skis to help me save the Monster's I just bought for a few more years of great skiing; and if I can occassionally rail 5 to 6 turns on Blue Mountain's finest when empty at 65 mph - AWESOME!
 

François Pugh

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I love this thread! @Wolfski just reminded me that I may be the one forum member uniquely qualified to ski these recreationally. I stopped skiing in the mid '90s (backcountry every day at The Big Mountain). Didn't pick up again until 5 years ago when Homeschooling our children (barely knew what a shaped ski was); my wife suggested skiing during the week as gym type class for kids. I picked up my Dynastar Coupe du Monde SLs (circa '88) and skied once a week with my kids and wife on those boards. It was a blast! I'm not sure what a Stivot is but I bet I was doing it. My thought is, I am much less immune to the faerie magick that these new shaped skis have enscorceled the ski community. I don't care if I look great as long as I am having fun with my family (eh, I can A frame it); the price might be right for a second pair of skis to help me save the Monster's I just bought for a few more years of great skiing; and if I can occassionally rail 5 to 6 turns on Blue Mountain's finest when empty at 65 mph - AWESOME!
These skis were designed to carve 2g+ turns at 50+ mph. If you do that they will be great. If not, you should be on another pair of skis.
If your running gates, these skis will not work that well for you; the gates are designed to separate the field given the equipment restrictions, i.e. difficult to do well. If you are free skiing though, you don't have to make the gates and can set your own line, so hella fun if the slopes are empty. A PITA if the slopes are crowded and you have to slip-slide your way down at slower speeds.
 

Muleski

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Just saying......you guys are very typical of the crew that seems to wistfully recall their straight ski race days. I'm not a kid. I skied in my first ski race in 1960, at age six. I have friends who have had the exact same thoughts: "Hell, I skied a 212cm GS ski back in the day. I bet they had a bigger radius than 35M? These are only 195cm. Can't be that different. Why not? "

Sure. One key admission is that nobody "carved" a ski in those days. They stomped on the downhill ski, crushed it, and bent it. And the energy of the ski pushed you through transition to do it again. Sidecut? Radius? Skiing "two footed"? Huh? What was a turn radius? Some of us actually had DH skis that had a reverse side cut for a short while. Widest part of the ski was under the boot. That experiment was short lived, but it shows that in those days radius was not normally being discussed.

So, NO, these will not ski like your old best in class straight GS skis. Or your treasured SL skis, be they 204cm, or 207cm.

Actually it's pretty funny to watch a really great younger racer jump on an old straight ski and try to ski it with some success. The sport has evolved, so much. They have to go "old school" to make them work. And to make the new skis work, you really have to be on top of your current school game. Just being honest.

These might be a lot of fun for you. Maybe. They are absolutely nothing like a straight race ski from the old days, and they really can't be skied that way. If your skiing sort of has a bias that way {still have a lot of weight on the DH ski, a lot of steering, some up and down weighting, a bit of counter rotation, not a ton of upper and lower body separation}, these are NOT going to be a whole lot of fun. Many of my ex race friends are a bit lazy with how they typically initiate a turn and drive the tip. That's not so good on these, at all. Skiing with friends or family? I would say not.

Don't get all fired up because they are available cheap. Just trying to be helpful.

"Faerie Magic".....that's a classic. Great. And stivoting? Guys who ski on the WC spent probably on average 30 days on snow adapting their previously dialed in stivot moves to these skis, then refining it in training most days for four seasons. The preferred way to ski them is to ignore that, an ski turns that are larger than the sets they had to race them in. I recall a friend bitching about his first run at Soelden a few years ago. He told me "well that sucked. I think I actually snapped off two decent turns on the pitch. No, actually one, a right footer." So any fun is in really carving them, in what feel like huge turns, on ideally prepared surfaces, LONG wide runs that are moderately steep, and pretty darn empty. No sliding, not stivots. Working the ski, up on edge, out from under you.

Not sure if you could get 5 turns in at Blue. They need a head of steam to turn, at all.

But sure, if this all sounds good, go for it. You can buy hand build WC stock race skis for a song. Mainly because there is zero market for them. We have a family friend, who does ski on the WC, who gave his GS skis away. His ski company had no interest in them. I kidded him and said he should at least have given a couple pairs to his dad {who is a great skier, skis about 100 days a season, and is about 6'3".....long time race background.} He chuckled and said he would just not do that to his dad. He keeps dad fully supplied with a GS cheater or two every season. Which he rips on in similar conditions.

As @ScotsSkier has said, there is a big difference between these and even 27M skis the past....even the 191's and 193's. The most recent ones are pretty much longer and beefier skis than the women 30M skis, obvioulsy with the bigger radius. @razie is spot on that the earlier skis were not good. I would go as far as to say that LIgety's Heads were great.......once they had pressed a couple of hundred different shapes and layups to find the best ones for him. The basic "race stock" Head ski that season was a lot like the others. The skis did keep getting better, year to year.

Just saw @François Pugh's post ^^^^^^^. Yep.

Just think it through......and be safe.

Over and out on this.
 

Swede

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One skier in the Swedish WC team publically said [half-serious] that FIS should pay him and the other athletes money for making them ski on them. Absolutely hated them. Very pleased with the new 30 m. Now, this is in a GS course. Different thing when and if you can ski a line of your own choice.
 

Burton

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If your skiing sort of has a bias that way {still have a lot of weight on the DH ski, a lot of steering, some up and down weighting, a bit of counter rotation, not a ton of upper and lower body separation}, these are NOT going to be a whole lot of fun.
No, no, I don't have any of those issues. Not at all. You must be thinking of the other guy. I'm sure I'd have a BLAST on these skis. :(

Kidding aside, you pretty much listed every problem I've been trying to methodically fix in my skiing the past 10 years. Enough with the up and down weighting already, sheesh.
 

Primoz

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@Muleski has all the right points, as always, but there's one thing though. One thing is talking about using them between gates. They are fun if setting and terrain is good, and totally crappy if terrain and settings are not good. Considering I'm not on start of WC races (which always goes under second, "not good terrain and setting"), but I have plenty opportunities to ride training courses of WC and EC guys, and there are some 20% of runs, where settings and terrain are such that these skis can be fun.
And now comes the other thing, free skiing. For free skiing, there's really not all that much difference between old 27m, last year's 35m or this years 30m ski. Ok in reality, I really like last year's 35m ski way better then old 27m ski, as they ski way better, and actually enables you make shorter radius turns then old 27m skis. But in general you really don't see all that much difference if you make turns with r 25, 28 or 30m. It gets a little bit faster, you need a bit more pressure and a bit higher angles, but at least for me, it's not really such monster thing to ski 35m ski comfortably, of course as long as it goes that you can turn wherever you want and there's no gates forcing you to turn on one particular spot, which is always few meters too close to previous turn.
As @Muleski wrote, these skis have absolutely nothing in common with old straight skis. I mean sure, you can ski the old way slipping down half the track before turning and slipping them on the other edge, but that's not the point of these skis. And one more thing to everyone "now I really need to try them". Are you perfectly comfortable skiing at 80+km/h? If yes, that's good start. If not, then well you really won't ski this ski then. You might slide it down, but certainly not ski it. No matter how it sounds, but these skis are simply impossible to turn at low speed, but basically any race GS ski is, even old 27m one. You need power, and a lot of power to bend it into turn. And this can be done only with really high angles, which are physically impossible to achieve at let's say 40km/h.
 

KingGrump

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But, but, but my phone app said I hit 78 mph* the other day on the green run. I am sure I am good enough. :roflmao::roflmao::roflmao:

* For the metric geeks out there - that is 125 KPH. Wow, 125 sound cool. :D I don't think my minivan can go that fast. :nono:
 

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