slow skiing on steeps/carving

[Josh Matta]

Wendy is one of the few freeskiers who is using more skill, than guts and athleticism. Compared to the current crop of freeskier with the exception of Townsend and Hoji, she still kicks their butts and could be most of the current crop's mom.

 

[Josh Matta]

The term Short leg / long leg gets me in trouble because of the bad habit of bracing with my outside leg.

for you maybe think about short leg, shorter leg. also realize if the inside ski is lifted(as a drill) it is impossible to "brace" against the outside ski.

 

[markojp]

for you maybe think about short leg, shorter leg. also realize if the inside ski is lifted(as a drill) it is impossible to "brace" against the outside ski.

Yeah, there are a couple things that we need to make sure clients can do consistently before throwing out 'short leg long leg''

 

[PTskier]

A wide stance is important for skiers in sloppy boots or for unaligned bow legged skiers. It is always a limiting factor. Trying to get most of the weight off the inside ski is harder the farther the legs are apart. Everything is harder, including skiing steeps & bumps. You need that leg on the uphill side out of the way.

Wide stance is when the legs are spread apart, not when the legs are together but the inside foot lifted way high for clearance when making great angles on the snow. (I was in a clinic run by an L3 who wanted us to make even width tracks in the snow at all points of the turn. That meant that we needed to get wider at transition and narrower in the arc. Idiotic.) Feet shoulder width apart is senseless--shoulders have nothing to do with stance. Ditto for feet hip width apart--skinny butt or fat butt doesn't determine skiing stance. Feet under the hip sockets might make sense if one knew where their hip sockets were, but that's not possible. How about legs walking-width apart the way our bodies have been balancing us since we were a year or two old? Don't mess with Mother Nature.

Bracing vs. balancing. Bracing against the skis is a limiting movement. Guaranteed to keep one stuck in the rut. Balancing over the skis. That works! It all starts with the beginning of the turn. If the turn isn't begun with a smooth C shape, bracing is almost a necessity.

Wendy sure looks under-canted. Look at her at 1:14 and many other shots. Knees tucked together while the skis are normal width apart.

 

[Monique]

for you maybe think about short leg, shorter leg. also realize if the inside ski is lifted(as a drill) it is impossible to "brace" against the outside ski.

Right. As I posted earlier, I wasn't saying it to get advice but to point out it can be trouble using that expression with some students. The last thing someone with a bracing habit or a too-upright habit needs is someone talking about a "long" leg. There are other ways to communicate it or drill it.

 

[Erik Timmerman]

I didn't want to comment too much on Wendy's alignment, but since you opened the box.... I totally agree. You can see her femurs are rotated toward each other almost all of the time, and she has a ton of inside tip lead. Still good skiing. I agree with you on stance too, functional is what we want, and to some people, functional is "wide". How is Wendy's stance? Is it "PSIA wide"? It would probably be a bit narrower with improved alignment.

I agree with DBostebdo too, it's not really slow skiing. It's good skiing at a pace that maybe we should call "moderate". I'm sure she could round those turns out more and slow it down if she wanted to.

 

[JESinstr]

Yeah, there are a couple things that we need to make sure clients can do consistently before throwing out 'short leg long leg''

Yeah, like balancing through the arch

 

[markojp]

. (I was in a clinic run by an L3* who wanted us to make even width tracks in the snow at all points of the turn. That meant that we needed to get wider at transition and narrower in the arc. Idiotic.) Feet under the hip sockets might make sense if one knew where their hip sockets were, but ....

FWIW, all instructors/coaches are not created equal. Yes, Ive had some suspect information 'taught', but not coming from a PSIA exclusive background, it hasn't been hard to separate the pooh and shinola.

Finding natural stance width is pretty easy.. Relax and make small hops/bounces... Could be in skis, could be in street shoes. Amazing how unconsciously and quickly things line up under the femur head.

 

[jzmtl]

I've been playing with this the last few days, where our condition is mostly bumps of loose snow with almost-boiler plate in between. The best way I found so far is just quickly bring the new outside ski around and carve/lightly steer the bottom 1/3 of a turn. Not too much slip though or the ski will chatter. Also good to intentionally hit the bumps and turn/set edge on back side, plus it's fun.

Railroad track the entire turn is out of the question, I'm too chicken to do that.

 

[karlo]

(helluva)skis end up quite a bit further apart than harb due to the edge angle he has.

I think the thing to look at is how far his legs are apart at maximum edge angle. In the video, at max edge angle, his boot appears nearly in contact with the other leg. If the legs are together like that, then the stance width entering the turn is ok, unless the intent was to go to even higher edge angle, in which case the stance should have been even wider.

One should keep in mind that the skiing in the video is an exaggeration of one element and type of skiing. The actual stance that a skier needs can be very different, and narrower. I don't think this type of skiing is what the OP had in mind.

 

[CalG]

On steep terrain, I don't ski from arc to arc. I ski from point to point. And I mean POINT.

Ski with purpose and destination. I find my edges are the best tools I have to arrive at the chosen point of selection for the next destination.

Skiing this way, I find the method less significant than the goal.

 

[tball]

Good video to illustrate the points made earlier in this thread and other threads relating to carving. Notice how Wendy carves part of all of her turns, even in the bumps. She uses short turns with flexing, angulation. and edging to control her speed and direction ( look at frame 1:36 ) . The Gentleman following is skidding a lot and even doing a little heel pushing, he's also back on his skis. He's keeping up, but looks off balance most of the time. Look at frame 1:47-1:48, you can see, Wendy presents the bottom of her skis to us from the camera angle we can see; you never see the bottoms of the gentleman's skis.

The two of them skiing together is a wonderful opportunity for us to notice what Wendy is doing that makes her skiing fantastic. It seems fairly rare us to see a video of skiers at different levels together like that.

To the guy's credit, that's uncomfortably steep terrain for most skiers. The sustained pitches at Crested Butte are several notches steeper than the steepest short pitches at most areas. I wouldn't want to be caught on camera anywhere skiing next to Wendy!

 

[tball]

Here's another thought that maybe only applies to intermediates like me - I wouldn't call any of her skiing in that video "slow".

When you're in bumps or any kind of terrain where you can't be mindless, things are happening very quickly - bumps are coming at you, you have to pick a line, you have to think about where to pole plant, you have to REMEMBER to pole plant, you have to think about where your weight is, etc.

All that can make it feel like things are going too fast, and everything is coming at you quickly, at which point you either brake, get out of control, or fall.

In other words it feels like you're skiing fast, mentally, even if it's not very fast physically.

So making those things as routine and automatic as possible will likely give you more control.

I know I'm not nearly there yet, but I'm working on it. And hopefully things will "slow down" (mentally) for me.

A few thoughts on learning to ski steeps:

Speed is relative. So is steepness. Everybody has their own comfort and skill levels. Continue to push beyond your comfort level, then back off and everything is easier.

It's too late If you have to think or remember much, even at a slow speed. Everything happens too fast to focus on more than a few basic things. Those things should probably be consistent turn-to-turn. Eventually, everything else comes from instinct.

The few things I think about: Keep my hands up. Keep my skis on the snow. Shoulders square with the hill. Use my skis as much as possible to turn, turn, turn. At one point that was turn, plant, turn, plant, turn, plant. . . Until my pole plants became instinctive.

Line selection is what I dedicate most of my limited brainpower to while skiing, especially in steeps. Where am I going? Where's the best snow? Most fun terrain? What are the odds that line is going to kill or maim me?

I used to stop frequently to pick a line in steeps and bumps. A fun challenge as I've improved is to choose my lines on the fly. That's a big part of the fun of skiing for me now, as I hope you can see in some of the videos I posted above.

It takes a lot of mileage to build skiing instincts and muscle memory. The more of that milage similar terrain and snow conditions, the better. Mileage in even more difficult terrain and conditions, pushing your comfort level, really helps with the psychological aspect (fear, uncertainty, doubt). It's hard to get mileage in super steep terrain, so take the opportunity when you have it.

I think the best analogy is learning to drive a car, particularly a manual transmission. There is SO much to think about when learning to drive: rules of the road, steering, shifting, braking, mirrors, fatal accidents, wrecking mom and dad's car, etc. It's overwhelming. Eventually, after enough mileage in enough different conditions, driving becomes instinctual. Driving becomes so ingrained some even choose, unwisely, to surf the web while driving. Thankfully that hasn't happened for skiing, yet.

That's all from my self-taught side of the tracks. I know others have different experiences and ways of learning. I just thought I'd share mine.

 

[Monique]

The few things I think about: Keep my hands up. Keep my skis on the snow. Shoulders square with the hill. Use my skis as much as possible to turn, turn, turn. At one point that was turn, plant, turn, plant, turn, plant. . . Until my pole plants became instinctive.

I'm finding it useful this season not to "think" at all, but to check periodically for certain sensations. Am I feeling the particular stretches that mean I'm countering (sorry, I mean, separating upper and lower body)? Where is the pressure under my foot? What part of the boot cuff do I feel? Where is my outside hand? Where is my inside hand? I'll ski 5-10 turns checking in on one sensation, then switch to another, for maybe 2 or 3 different sensations on a run.

Of course, this presumes that I have a pretty good idea of what it would feel like if I were doing it correctly.

 

[Rod9301]

A few thoughts on learning to ski steeps:

Speed is relative. So is steepness. Everybody has their own comfort and skill levels. Continue to push beyond your comfort level, then when back off and everything is easier.

It's too late If you have to think or remember much, even at a slow speed. Everything happens too fast to focus on more than a few basic things. Those things should probably be consistent turn-to-turn. Eventually, everything else comes from instinct.

The few things I think about: Keep my hands up. Keep my skis on the snow. Shoulders square with the hill. Use my skis as much as possible to turn, turn, turn. At one point that was turn, plant, turn, plant, turn, plant. . . Until my pole plants became instinctive.

Line selection is what I dedicated most of my limited brainpower to while skiing, especially in steeps. Where am I going? Where's the best snow? Most fun terrain? What are the odds that line is going to kill or maim me?

I used to stop frequently to pick a line in steeps and bumps. A fun challenge as I've improved is to choose my lines on the fly. That's a big part of the fun of skiing for me now, as I hope you can see in some of the videos I posted above.

It takes a lot of mileage to build skiing instincts and muscle memory. The more of that milage similar terrain and snow conditions, the better. Some mileage in more difficult terrain and conditions, pushing your comfort level, really helps with the psychological aspect (fear, uncertainty, doubt). It's hard to get mileage in super steep terrain, so take the opportunity when you have it.

I think the best analogy is learning to drive a car, particularly a manual transmission. There is SO much to think about when learning to drive: rules of the road, steering, shifting, braking, mirrors, fatal accidents, wrecking mom and dad's car, etc. It's overwhelming. Eventually, after enough mileage in enough different conditions, driving becomes instinctual. Driving becomes so ingrained some even choose, unwisely, to surf the web while driving. Thankfully that hasn't happened for skiing, yet.

That's all from my self-taught side of the tracks. I know others have different experiences and ways of learning. I just thought I'd share mine.

Speaking of not stopping to scope a line.

In Alaska, years ago, Gordy Pfeifer told me to keep sideslipping on top of a challenging line, while shopping the terrain.

So you ski, get to the top of a steep rollover, and instead of stopping, put your skis sideways and keep moving, while you find where your turns will be.

 

[JESinstr]

Josh Matta said: ↑
for you maybe think about short leg, shorter leg. also realize if the inside ski is lifted(as a drill) it is impossible to "brace" against the outside ski.

Right. As I posted earlier, I wasn't saying it to get advice but to point out it can be trouble using that expression with some students. The last thing someone with a bracing habit or a too-upright habit needs is someone talking about a "long" leg. There are other ways to communicate it or drill it.

Agree. I actually try and use the term: "short leg/strong leg". But most of my success comes from focus on the inside leg using terms like "flexing", "softening", "collapsing" . I would be interested in other words you might use to communicate it. I am always looking for more arrows to put in the quiver!

 

[Monique]

Agree. I actually try and use the term: "short leg/strong leg". But most of my success comes from focus on the inside leg using terms like "flexing", "softening", "collapsing" . I would be interested in other words you might use to communicate it. I am always looking for more arrows to put in the quiver!

Ooh, good question. Can I provide something better rather than just complaining about the term?

Hmm.

I am honestly not sure I fully grasp the concept at this point, having only started getting a clue in the last few weeks. I only know that the "long leg" part has been difficult for me to grasp because I had been clearly told - and could tell experientially - that bracing with that outside leg was Bad for my skiing.

Who said "short leg/shorter leg?" That was pretty funny.

My breakthrough came a couple of weeks ago with the "just soften your inside leg on a green and see what happens" drill. But I've been given that drill for years, I think, and I don't know why I was finally able to do it (trust it?) this season.

 

[tball]

I'm finding it useful this season not to "think" at all, but to check periodically for certain sensations. Am I feeling the particular stretches that mean I'm countering (sorry, I mean, separating upper and lower body)? Where is the pressure under my foot? What part of the boot cuff do I feel? Where is my outside hand? Where is my inside hand? I'll ski 5-10 turns checking in on one sensation, then switch to another, for maybe 2 or 3 different sensations on a run.

Here's another way to think about not thinking about things while skiing.

Rather than thinking about something, eventually you learn to just notice when it's wrong. An internal alarm goes off when you drop a hand, for example. That way you don't have to think about it all the time and can focus elsewhere.

Same thing with the driving analogy. You don't really think about staying in your lane. You notice and correct when you drift out of your lane.

I'm not sure how you learn that other than mileage thinking about those things in the first place?

 

[Monique]

Here's another way to think about not thinking about things while skiing.

Rather than thinking about something, eventually you learn to just notice when it's wrong. An internal alarm goes off when you drop a hand, for example. That way you don't have to think about it all the time and can focus elsewhere.

Same thing with the driving analogy. You don't really think about staying in your lane. You notice and correct when you drift out of your lane.

I'm not sure how you learn that other than mileage thinking about those things in the first place?

I think it has to be a "perfect practice" thing. The wrong thing can't feel wrong until the right thing feels right, and for me at least, breaking out of the comfortable, wrong pattern has been difficult. The right thing feels wrong until you do it enough that it feels right. Right?

 

[JESinstr]

Ooh, good question. Can I provide something better rather than just complaining about the term?

Hmm.

I am honestly not sure I fully grasp the concept at this point, having only started getting a clue in the last few weeks. I only know that the "long leg" part has been difficult for me to grasp because I had been clearly told - and could tell experientially - that bracing with that outside leg was Bad for my skiing.

Who said "short leg/shorter leg?" That was pretty funny.

My breakthrough came a couple of weeks ago with the "just soften your inside leg on a green and see what happens" drill. But I've been given that drill for years, I think, and I don't know why I was finally able to do it (trust it?) this season.

Excellent! Yes, The image of "Softening" works for many. The short leg/shorter leg is also a good approach because we are always flexing.