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Monique

bounceswoosh
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Excellent! Yes, The image of "Softening" works for many. The short leg/shorter leg is also a good approach because we are always flexing.

There was another drill that finally got me both bending both knees and angulating. All together, this terrible season has been great for my skiing.
 

tball

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I think it has to be a "perfect practice" thing. The wrong thing can't feel wrong until the right thing feels right, and for me at least, breaking out of the comfortable, wrong pattern has been difficult. The right thing feels wrong until you do it enough that it feels right. Right?
I'm not sure I buy that "perfect practice" applies much to steeps, or bumps, or powder.

To practice perfectly, you'll need to be on an easy run. Perfect technique skiing an easy run helps only so much on a challenging run.

At some point, you need mileage in the terrain and conditions you seek to perfect. You are not going to ski there perfectly (nobody does). With more experience, your imperfections will fade into better and better skiing.

Look at the mortal gentleman following Wendy in that video. How would "perfect practice" apply to him in that steep terrain? Following a good skier while imperfectly skiing is a much better way to learn, at least in my experience.
 
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Monique

bounceswoosh
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I'm not sure I buy that "perfect practice" applies much to steeps, or bumps, or powder.

To practice perfectly, you'll need to be on an easy run. Perfect technique skiing an easy run helps only so much on a challenging run.

At some point, you need mileage in the terrain and conditions you seek to perfect. You are not going to ski there perfectly (nobody does). With more experience, your imperfections will fade into better and better skiing.

Look at the mortal gentleman following Wendy in that video. How would "perfect practice" apply to him in that steep terrain? Following a good skier while imperfectly skiing is a much better way to learn, at least in my experience.

Well, yes and no.

I perhaps misused the term "perfect practice." But the rest of my post is based on experience - when I start trying certain correct things, they feel wrong to me because they are unfamiliar. When in doubt (not just tricky terrain, but if the snow conditions changed or if I feel crowded), I drop back to familiar movement patterns that feel right and whose parameters I understand precisely. Until the right movements feel right, I can't rely on my Spidey senses tingling.

I would argue that no one skis perfectly, period, even on a green with perfect snow. Everyone can work on something.

Perfect practice would apply to him when he got good enough that it was only a little bit challenging, not extremely challenging. In my experience, I ski better when I follow a better skier, but it doesn't "stick" when I ski without them to follow.
 

Started at 53

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OK, I’m gonna take this to a newbie level :yahoo: Or :nono: depending on your viewpoint, but here goes:

Short Leg..... IF I shorten my new inside leg by bending the knee, will this effectively lengthen/pressure my new outside ski to essentially have the skis radius create a turn?

Last week I got to the point where I was flexing into my new outside ski while at the same time lightening my new inside ski to make turns. In case you saw my videos (I hope you did not for my sake) I was obviously feeling a lot more than was actually going on, but it was working. I am trying to come up with a sensation to make this happen easier and to a much higher degree.

Sorry in advance for dragging a great thread down to my level.
 

Seldomski

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@tball : Thanks for the great video with Wendy and her friend. What I observe is Wendy seems very comfortable with the pace and line choice throughout. She is making offensive moves and not reacting to the terrain, but bending the terrain to her will. She is one step (or more) ahead of the mountain. In contrast, her friend does not appear comfortable and is skiing defensively. A bit aft with a fair amount of skidding. It looks like he is reacting to the mountain instead of dominating it. Very interesting contrast. He is not terrible, but it seems he is being pushed out of his comfort zone and getting beaten up by the terrain.

In his defense, that may have been the first time he did that particular run. Maybe the second time through, he would relax a bit more and look more like Wendy? If I had been there, probably would have been defensive also, maybe getting more confidence after each run? Could her friend ever look confident/in control on that run at a slower speed? Should he keep doing this run at his own pace to improve, or is it simply too much?

So to get back to the original post and topic, what is better for growth as a skier when working on a challenging (steeps, bumps) run?

1) Ski at the edge of your comfort level for speed/line choice and survive the experience?
-or-
2) Ski the same run, but pick a slower line/rhythm and ski it technically better and/or where you feel comfortable?

Does skiing like 1) enough times get you comfortable? Or is it better to ski the terrain less direct (turn shape, line choice) and assume eventually you will progress to a more direct approach?
 

Chris Walker

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Disclaimer: I know this is the ski school forum so I'm sorry if my story goes off the rails technically because I'm not a professional, but here goes.

I think the goal here is the familiar problem of how to, as much as possible, use your line to control your speed and not friction. I'm very far from where I want to be in this ability, particularly when the steep hill is also icy, but I think I've started to see the light on how I can get closer. Ironically, it involves trying to learn to go faster on steep, icy terrain.

A combination of naivete and a shocking over-estimation of my skiing abilities led me a few years ago to take up ski racing at my advanced age. I knew enough to know that carving was fast and skidding was slow, but I noticed that on steep, icy sections of a race course, there was simply nothing I could do to get the ski edge to bite. It was all I could do to throw the skis sideways and hang on for dear life just to make it to the next gate. Super slow.

Through getting some coaching, I found out my main issue with that was that I was pressuring my skis too late in the turn, and had no hope of my edges holding while gravity, momentum and my own pushing against my skis were all combining to pressure the skis at the bottom third of the turn, as seen in my crudely drawn diagram.
tp1.jpg

If I could do things like flex in transition instead of up-unweighting (this is where I'm probably garbling the terminology), I could begin pressuring the skis when they are in the fall line (middle third) or preferably even earlier. This would establish my direction before the apex of the turn and I could actually be easing off the pressure in the bottom third, increasing the likelihood that the edges would hold. I found this technique to be really helpful even when I'm trying to control my speed by keeping that turn going longer instead of by throwing them sideways. So even without gates, when I am free-skiing icy steeps I find I have more control by pressuring my skis earlier in the turn.

Someone let me know If this is all wrong, LOL.
 

Fuller

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@tball :

So to get back to the original post and topic, what is better for growth as a skier when working on a challenging (steeps, bumps) run?

1) Ski at the edge of your comfort level for speed/line choice and survive the experience?
-or-
2) Ski the same run, but pick a slower line/rhythm and ski it technically better and/or where you feel comfortable?

Does skiing like 1) enough times get you comfortable? Or is it better to ski the terrain less direct (turn shape, line choice) and assume eventually you will progress to a more direct approach?

I try and do both. I don't have any particular time constraints so it makes sense to me to attempt to work out the theory at a totally controlled pace, then work up to something more challenging (without losing the form).
 

Magi

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Short Leg..... IF I shorten my new inside leg by bending the knee, will this effectively lengthen/pressure my new outside ski to essentially have the skis radius create a turn?

Good question- and that's part of it... the "effectively" is a really big keyword in that question.

Bending (closing) just your Knees moves everything above the knee Aft.
Bending (closing) just your Ankles moves everything above the ankle Forward.
Bending (closing) just your Hips moves everything above the hips Forward.

So if all you do is bend your knee to shorten the leg - you'll end up aft on at least that ski. You have to bend the knee while you maintain ankle flex/shin pressure.

The other part of the "Effective" is that you have to lengthen the formerly short leg (to become the new long leg), and you have to do all of this while staying on the front of your boot.

So the basic steps are:

1. Pressure the tips of your skis (with more pressure going to the outside ski).
2. Tip your skis onto the new edge using your legs, not a whole body lean. (starting as close to the snow as possible and moving up the body as you reach the limits of each joint). If you reach the limits of your ability to tip your legs and still want to create a higher edge angle - allow the long leg to "collapse" (shorten) and lengthen your other leg at a rate that matches your tipping.
3. Turn your skis using leg turning under a stable upper body.

All of these steps have a feedback loop that allows you to shape the turn - but the order at "turn initiation" (the process when you go from the old edges to the new ones) is critical to getting the edge to engage early in the turn. If you turn your skis THEN try to create edge angles, things generally don't work as well.

Edit - changed "(closing) your" to "(closing) just your"
 
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Magi

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...careful with this one, it also moves your hips back... there's many skiers that hunch forward excessively, only to drive the skis from the heels.
:eek:

You're absolutely right that the natural way to balance bending at the waist is to bend at the knee.

I'm sure you also know that it's perfectly possible, on skis, to bend any one of the joints that I've mentioned above (ankle/knee/waist) without bending the others at all.

I've added the word "just" to all of the joint commentary above to avoid any further confusion.
 

François Pugh

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If you do 1 and 2 above, 3 will be done for you. Long leg short leg helps with 2. Keep that inside knee out of the way of the outside leg.
All of that is pretty easy to explain. The hard part is explaining proper positioning of the hips. I can't do it; I should have taken kinesiology. :nono:
 

Josh Matta

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...careful with this one, it also moves your hips back... there's many skiers that hunch forward excessively, only to drive the skis from the heels.
:eek:

not hat I am saying or condoning this...

but if you bent just your hips you would be more forward....but there is no way anyony could ski comfortably from that position.
 

razie

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not hat I am saying or condoning this...

but if you bent just your hips you would be more forward....but there is no way anyony could ski comfortably from that position.

Yah - the brain will naturally seek balance and if you move the shoulders forward, something's gotta move back - the hip. It's still uncomfortable, I think.

For instance bending the knee (shortening the leg) needs to be accompanied by closing the ankle and flexing the hip - but flexing the hip should not be done by hunching forward, but bringing the femur up, if that distinction makes sense. I simply call all that complexity "shortening the leg" or "flexing".

The hard part is explaining proper positioning of the hips. I can't do it; I should have taken kinesiology. :nono:

Instead of positioning, how about focusing on how it moves: lift the inside hip and move it forward... ? Not only are turns in all shapes and sizes, but things always change during a turn, I don't like to park and ride anything, so I tend to focus on the relative movements.

:thumb:
 

slowrider

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IMO folding/hunching at the waist creates imbalance. That blocks your tipping and vertical separation* ability. "Very few" skiers use little if any V.S.* One of the most important movements in dynamic skiing.
 

James

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...careful with this one, it also moves your hips back... there's many skiers that hunch forward excessively, only to drive the skis from the heels.
:eek:
Well allegedly they don't pull the feet back enough. There's a whole school who ski like this.
 
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tch

tch

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"vertical separation"? with an asterisk?
Please explain/define/illustrate.
 

Yo Momma

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Yah - the brain will naturally seek balance and if you move the shoulders forward, something's gotta move back - the hip. It's still uncomfortable, I think.

For instance bending the knee (shortening the leg) needs to be accompanied by closing the ankle and flexing the hip - but flexing the hip should not be done by hunching forward, but bringing the femur up, if that distinction makes sense. I simply call all that complexity "shortening the leg" or "flexing".



Instead of positioning, how about focusing on how it moves: lift the inside hip and move it forward... ? Not only are turns in all shapes and sizes, but things always change during a turn, I don't like to park and ride anything, so I tend to focus on the relative movements.

:thumb:

This is one of the best descriptions I think I've ever seen. I plan to borrow this.... but I'll quote ya! Thankyou! :beercheer:
 

dbostedo

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"vertical separation"? with an asterisk?
Please explain/define/illustrate.

I'm not sure about the asterisk meaning, but vertical separation would usually refer to the distance between the skis along the length of the legs. Horiztontal separation would refer to the width of the stance, or the distance between the skis in the direction across both legs.

I.e. if you stand in a normal stance and raise one foot up off the ground, you're increasing the vertical separation. If you stand in a normal stance and move a foot out to widen your stance, your increasing the horizontal separation.

When actually skiing, this can be tipped on it's side, because the vertical separation increases with higher edge angles. But the terms don't change in relation to the legs. Bending too much at the waist then could prevent you from getting lots of vertical separation in a turn.

upload_2018-1-12_10-36-31.png
 

razie

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Well allegedly they don't pull the feet back enough. There's a whole school who ski like this.
Nah - I don't think pulling the feet back can compensate for hunching forward - your hips would still be back...

In general, the back should be fairly upright, in SL (i.e. every day skiing)... that's why I reacted to the hip flexion in the first place.

Pulling the feet back is quite similar to, but more descriptive/prescriptive than just saying "shin pressure" or "close ankles", if you think about it ;) as it prescribes also the "how to".

Here's pulling the feet back in a deeply flexed transition, with the back fairly upright, to put some visuals behind the words:

black-ted-flex-pullback.png


cheers
 
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JESinstr

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Nah - I don't think pulling the feet back can compensate for hunching forward - your hips would still be back...

In general, the back should be fairly upright, in SL (i.e. every day skiing)... that's why I reacted to the hip flexion in the first place.

Pulling the feet back is quite similar to, but more descriptive/prescriptive than just saying "shin pressure" or "close ankles", if you think about it ;) as it prescribes also the "how to".

cheers

-what's-a-nice-smiley-to-insert-here-

Couldn't agree with you more Raz. And you being on the race coaching end of things, those are words advanced skiers can relate to. On the wedge end of things where velocity is low, I find that telling the student to "keep your feet underneath" works well for the newbie.
 

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