How to spot ice patch

[jzmtl]

@jzmtl injected But it also depends how they do it and what are weather conditions as even with injection you can end up with great gripy but hard snow or with pure ice where ice hockey rink set to 30degrees feels easier to handle

I'd love to try it sometime.

 

[Sibhusky]

The main warning signs I saw were the way the slough looked like it had slid into piles as opposed to being skied into piles. Plus the reflections from the lights, but I don't know how the lights were positioned coming AT you relative to the ice. But the surface looking like micro avalanches, sharp-ish lines, tells me the little bit of snow is sliding without much assistance from skis. The snow couldn't even keep itself on the hill.

 

[RichGuo]

The snow couldn't even keep itself on the hill.

That perfectly described that ice surface, I see no body coming to this slope later that night.

 

[cantunamunch]

yeah, I did a lot night skiing last 3 seasons, encounterng small ice patch is norm.

Oh, absolutely. As I used to say in previous years - if I didn't have a night skiing season, I wouldn't have a ski season.

 

[Tricia]

but more tips will be big help to for us intermediate skier avoid sore ass when hit it unexpect.

I'm just catching up with this thread and have the words of Bob Barnes creep into my head.
When we were skiing in poor visibility one day he said,"Don't worry, if you can't see it, you'll feel it"

Much the same applies to ice

 

[4ster]

Yes that’s correct. Everyone was well aware, informed and warned. But in the heat of the race, a few still got surprised, which can happen. The term I’ve heared is ”grippy”? Is that a term used in the Americas for dry, firm snow? Grippy snow?

Yes “grippy” snow is a term used by American skiers, racers,coaches & broadcasters.

 

[LiquidFeet]

....
I would have continued [B]short turns, but would have let my skis get perpendicular to the fall line[/B] before pivoting them into the next turn. No anticipation, no getting inside the turn. Essentially, [B]I'd be doing pivot slips. There would be some lateral movement across the hill [/B]but I would not let my speed build up and I wouldn't be trying to carve per se, but be quite content with brushed turns.

Best advice for that ice so far. @RichGuo have you ever
tried pivot slips? You can practice them any time, but on
ice they rule. Here's an animation by Bob Barnes:
[IMG]http://www.mynetimages.com/ff4a3ef2_md.gif[/IMG]
...and here's a description below of how it's done.
Your attempts will probably produce left-right travel
at first. Going straight down the fall line without
left-right travel is quite difficult. Anyway, pivot slips
will slow you down on sheer ice. It's something to
do to keep yourself moving, and that movement helps
give you continuous control over your speed. Try not
to get rigid and freeze when you hit that ice.
[MEDIA=youtube]iUuCWQ_2WOo[/MEDIA]

 

[James]

yes. because the angles for spotting ice well ahead of when you enter it are just wrong.

I guess I'd better get a dog to help out.
Sure, you can't always see it, but does one drive a car expecting black ice when it's 85 degrees out? When there is a chance of black ice though you are cautious.
I will tell you last weekend no one was surprised where the ice was. It was very important to look for some island of safety and head for it. Plan a turn on it.

That's actually a good thing to know- if there's soft snow on the side, plan a hard turn there back uphill, then a soft turn on the ice back the other way. By hard turn, I mean you are commiting way inside the turn-whatever you're capable of. You must start it though before you get there. If the spot is narrow on the side, it maybe only the tails that dig in, but they will redirect you uphill.

Hirschers, Shiffrins, and Pinteraults should not read the next section!. You'll get slower.
Otherwise, essentially you want to maximize friction of your edges to ice. Then do a gentle 'slow skid. As skis come across the fall line you can try to set an outside edge- tipping it more to see if it will bite. You can't lean inside the turn much but angulate to increase pressure on the outside ski. Stay low.

yes. because the angles for spotting ice well ahead of when you enter it are just wrong. By the time you're close enough to see it, your momentum is too high to make drastic course corrections...or to stop.

Here is a sun table - pick your time of day. http://aa.usno.navy.mil/cgi-bin/aa_...th=1&day=15&intv_mag=10&state=VT&place=Ludlow

1pm near Ludlow on Jan. 15th? Sun is 25 degrees above the horizon. Say we have a 6 foot skier on a 30 degree slope. 25 degree sun angle and 30 degree slope means the reflection angle is 55 degrees above horizontal. In order to see the bright glinty icy patch a 6' skier has to be within (6'cos30)/tan(55) - that's within 3.6 feet of the ice.

What's the word for non-conservative skiing and being able to spot and correct one's course or speed within 3.6 feet? Unlikely? Absurd?

People on the lift will see it. The skier won't. Not before it's waaaay too late.

Well when you can define the tensor field on the Lorentzian manifold where I'm skiing at the time, I might buy it. Meanwhile, when the kids ask "why are we going over there? It's total Ice!" I'll let them know since they're only 4'6" tall, what they're seeing is a complete illusion. Actually, I think I will use that! I'm going to tell them, "How do we know that what we see as ice is not a mirage? We have to go over and find out!" Probably will have to define 'mirage', and they still won't buy it, but we'll go anyway.

@James , when you respond to a recreational skiing question with answers referring to WC skiing style, you are offering oranges, when the OP wants apples. I know what you are getting at, but unless I was asking about how to improve my GS skills, you missed the mark. Most recreational skiers (RS) don't achieve the level of anticipation that you are discussing and illustrating.

Most pressure and opportunity to slide on ice is done after the skis have pointed down the hill as gravity and the turn are increasing the forces on the ski. In this portion of the turn skiers should be balanced so the dialog I agreed with from @cantunamunch, does jibe.

Having seen the OPs video demonstrating the type of ice he wants to be able to negotiate, my response would be balance is paramount. He addresses it by removing the lateral forces, knowing he can balance fore and aft and get down the pitch at speed.

I would have continued short turns, but would have let my skis get perpendicular to the fall line before pivoting them into the next turn. No anticipation, no getting inside the turn. Essentially, I'd be doing pivot slips. There would be some lateral movement across the hill but I would not let my speed build up and I wouldn't be trying to carve per se, but be quite content with brushed turns.

Yes, well clearly the post wasn't made for those making apple juice but those making orange granitas. The large discussion of injected courses and how they're carving such places. "I'm carving arcs on solid ice" and "just carve arc to arc" - don't worry if you haven't sharpened your edges in weeks because it works for me. Maybe if the trail is a flat green. You're talking about sliding which is much more realistic in such places. However, I prefer apple cider to clear apple juice. Plus, what happened to the lemons? Oh, they're in the lodge where we make lemonade as a mixer.

 

[Jamt]

I'm not buying the "stay balanced" and "I'm carving" super solid ice. I think staying balanced is an excellent technique to negotiate these rock hard places for the vast majority, and probably that means 99% of skiers. If you're really carving at a high level though, you're not entering these turns in balance. You are essentially and intentionally very out of balance. You're betting on a future of balance. The faster the speed, steeper the pitch, tighter the arc, the bigger the bet. But if you froze the skier at the beginning of the turn, and stopped any motion, they would fall to the ground. Assuming gravity. So saying "stay balanced" tells me essentially one is being very conservative, and looking to get a bit of carving somewhere, but it's not a fast arc. Can't be.

Look at this:

Photo by Ron LeMaster
Mikaela Shiffrin, FIS World Championships, Vail 2015
​

Between the transition and the next frame, let's say 1/5 of a second, she's gone from a flat ski to like 60 degrees of edge angle. She's also hugely inclined in that time period - she's way inside her skis. Between those two images there is little to no pressure. So she's made a big move inside the turn, betting on her skis are going to hold. No hold, no turn, and she's sliding downhill. There's only balance because of the speed and turn forces. Placed in that position with no motion you would just fall to the ground.

My point is that unless you're placing big bets on future balance, it's doubtful there's lots of carving going on. Placing those bets on super firm surfaces requires lots of experience and the equipment capable of handling the bet.

This is a great post. The difference between dynamic and static balance. Many intermediate and advanced skiers are in more or less static balance. That is why they cannot ski ice. Usually people tense up and become even more static when they see ice.
Mikaela has an upwards acceleration of about 2G after the apex in that turn. Like I said in another thread, it is like having a magic force pushing your skis into the ice.
Dynamic skiing (as per the fourth point in my signature) is THE most important aspect of skiing ice.

 

[Monique]

Your attempts will probably produce left-right travel
at first.

And in fact, one good way to play with pivot slips and fore/aft balance is to do this intentionally. Do side slips or pivot slips intentionally going "forward" across the mountain. Then do some going "backwards" (make sure it's clear first!). Then try to slide down without moving fore or aft.

 

[RichGuo]

Best advice for that ice so far. @RichGuo have you ever tried pivot slips? You can practice them any time, but on ice they rule. Here's an animation by Bob Barnes:
[IMG]http://www.mynetimages.com/ff4a3ef2_md.gif[/IMG]
...and here's a description below of how it's done.
Your attempts will probably produce left-right travel
at first. Going straight down the fall line without
left-right travel is quite difficult. Anyway, pivot slips
will slow you down on sheer ice. It's something to
do to keep yourself moving, and that movement helps
give you continuous control over your speed. Try not
to get rigid and freeze when you hit that ice.
[MEDIA=youtube]iUuCWQ_2WOo[/MEDIA]

Yes, I did pivot slips on blue run, never try on ice, good to know pivot slips can be applied on ice, I guess my toolbox will less empty this season

 

[RichGuo]

And in fact, one good way to play with pivot slips and fore/aft balance is to do this intentionally. Do side slips or pivot slips intentionally going "forward" across the mountain. Then do some going "backwards" (make sure it's clear first!). Then try to slide down without moving fore or aft.

what do you mean going "forward" across the mountain? do you mean going down the mountain?

 

[Monique]

what do you mean going "forward" across the mountain? do you mean going down the mountain?

No ...

If you're doing pivot slips or side slips, your skis are across the mountain, right?

So by "forward" and "backward" I mean moving in the direction of your tips and in the direction of your tails. You can do this by flattening your skis to the slope (beginning the slip) and then putting a little more weight toward the front of the ski - your skis will gradually drift "forward," say to the left of the slope. Then you put your weight a little more toward your tails ... and you'll drift "backward," say to the right.

Does this make sense?

 

[RichGuo]

No ...

If you're doing pivot slips or side slips, your skis are across the mountain, right?

So by "forward" and "backward" I mean moving in the direction of your tips and in the direction of your tails. You can do this by flattening your skis to the slope (beginning the slip) and then putting a little more weight toward the front of the ski - your skis will gradually drift "forward," say to the left of the slope. Then you put your weight a little more toward your tails ... and you'll drift "backward," say to the right.

Does this make sense?

Oh, understand, falling leaf drill!

 

[Monique]

Oh, understand, falling leaf drill!

I ... uh ...

*embarrassed*

Now that you mention it ... yeah.

Okay, I wasn't thinking of *exactly* that. I was thinking of doing a bunch of side slips weighting "forward." Then a bunch weighting "backward." Then a bunch neutral.

We did this in a lesson a month or so ago, and my skiing felt much better after.

 

[James]

I don't think I'd recommend full on pivot slips on a huge ice patch on a pitch. Certainly not as a survival style. There's no change of direction, nor that much friction. If everything's smooth and you're not going to go over a fallaway into the trees or into rocks, knock yourself out.

 

[RichGuo]

I ... uh ...

*embarrassed*

Now that you mention it ... yeah.

Okay, I wasn't thinking of *exactly* that. I was thinking of doing a bunch of side slips weighting "forward." Then a bunch weighting "backward." Then a bunch neutral.

We did this in a lesson a month or so ago, and my skiing felt much better after.

nothing to be embarrassed,

I will try it as well , but need wait for empty trail, maybe do it at end of day time period.

 

[Monique]

I don't think I'd recommend full on pivot slips on a huge ice patch on a pitch. Certainly not as a survival style. There's no change of direction, nor that much friction. If everything's smooth and you're not going to go over a fallaway into the trees or into rocks, knock yourself out.

I meant more to practice these things on a groomer - so that when you're on the ice, you have a better innate sense of balance and how even very subtle movements can impact your direction.

 

[slowrider]

Like walking on egg shells...

 

[Swede]

With the Hahnekamm coming up this image from a few years back pops to mind: