How to spot ice patch

[oldschoolskier]

Let me try differently.....

Years ago when I was teaching my wife to ski, going from grippy snow conditions to ice back and forth (just one of those years). She developed a fear of ice.

The hardest thing was to get her balanced and not back (fearful) on her ski in these conditions. I didn’t care about speed, makes little difference, you’re back, you’re going down in ice as you push out the tails (likely stiffen up in fear) and accelerate the process.

Even if your skis aren’t razor sharp, if you’re balanced, you may slip and slide a little, but you stay upright.

Since you’ve mentioned looking at other skiers you can clearly see those balanced and those not when skiing from one condition to the next.

Stay upright is not about being good, just balanced. Skiing better, that’s just time and practice.

Better?

 

[Swede]

That was up top in the shade. Yesterday, farther down it was soft tossing competitors all over the place when they hit the soft spots..

Yes that’s correct. Everyone was well aware, informed and warned. But in the heat of the race, a few still got surprised, which can happen. The term I’ve heared is ”grippy”? Is that a term used in the Americas for dry, firm snow? Grippy snow?

 

[Monique]

Even if your skis aren’t razor sharp, if you’re balanced, you may slip and slide a little, but you stay upright.

Yes, but the claim was that people are CARVING throughout that turn, not just staying upright.

 

[oldschoolskier]

Yes, but the claim was that people are CARVING throughout that turn, not just staying upright.

I think that’s called thread drift.......I’m addressing the OP original post and title of the thread.

It’s not so much about being able to see ice, because realistically as mentioned by others not so easy, but dealing with it when you encounter it.

Equipment helps, skill helps, tune helps and so on. Most importantly being balanced prevents the fall, the rest just makes it easier.

The earlier skiers learn this simple thing the better they will become.

 

[cantunamunch]

My point is that unless you're placing big bets on future balance, it's doubtful there's lots of carving going on. .

*shrug* isn't pretty much every two-footed release a 'bet on future balance'? 'There's only balance because of the speed and turn forces' is exactly right but that is all of skiing really.

"it's not a fast arc" - how do we know that, again? Is it merely because we regard the ski labeled radius as the maximum radius and that faster speeds with the same centripetal force would require proportionally greater arc radii, presumably greater than the ski labeled radius?

 

[Monique]

I think that’s called thread drift.......I’m addressing the OP original post and title of the thread.

It’s not so much about being able to see ice, because realistically as mentioned by others not so easy, but dealing with it when you encounter it.

Equipment helps, skill helps, tune helps and so on. Most importantly being balanced prevents the fall, the rest just makes it easier.

The earlier skiers learn this simple thing the better they will become.

Sorry. I read yours as a response to, er, I think James' post.

Carry on.

"Just carve hard on the ice" is a bad answer for a beginner-to-intermediate IMO, anyway.

 

[razie]

From the Wengen SL thread
View attachment 37305

That's basically what we trained and raced on this weekend throughout Southern Ontario - it rained for two days and then it dropped to -15..-20C over a few hours, Friday afternoon, and it stayed there all weekend, so most slopes were bulletproof with some sugar on top, but race hills were scraped off quickly. One hill didn't even groom Sunday and let it be a "block of ice".

There's many kinds of ice. Some are not a big problem... and some... take some work... and the one from @4ster 's photo is... ugh... mulled wine time?

 

[James]

*shrug* isn't pretty much every two-footed release a 'bet on future balance'? 'There's only balance because of the speed and turn forces' is exactly right but that is all of skiing really.

"it's not a fast arc" - how do we know that, again? Is it merely because we regard the ski labeled radius as the maximum radius and that faster speeds with the same centripetal force would require proportionally greater arc radii, presumably greater than the ski labeled radius?

So, let's see.
"Don't look" because it's too late. Great. Seriously?
"Stay in balance" pretty good advice actually. Likely not much of a carve though. Because you're always in balance. Not high end carving.
Yes, all of skiing is a bet on balance. Apparently until one gets on ice.

 

[François Pugh]

I said it above, but clearly my point was missed. Let me try again.

My favorite thing to do on Ontario Canada Groomers is Carve Arc-2-Arc turns as fast as I can (slower with SL skis than GS skis, slower with GS skis than my beloved antique recreational SG skis) and as tight (tighter with SL...) as I can. Over the last decade or so I've really increased the amount of counter (both counter balance and counter rotation - if that means anything to you) that I ski with. I've also not sharpened my skis for the last little while; I need to get me a sidewall planer. We recently had a big thaw and flash freeze.

The result being a lot of icy patches on the hill, covered with a dusting of snow and hard to predict (well at least the first time down the run). I unexpectedly found my self slipping sideways out of the carved groove quite often these last few days. Had I been skiing with the limited amount of angulation and counter rotation that I skied with 10 years ago, I would have been on my adz, a lot, but with my current skiing style it was not a problem - just slip sideways for a bit, recover and carry on.

Point is to ski with a good measure of counter and angulation, so you'll have some balance in reserve to survive the unexpected ice without a fall.

 

[Chris Walker]

I'm not buying the "stay balanced" and "I'm carving" super solid ice. I think staying balanced is an excellent technique to negotiate these rock hard places for the vast majority, and probably that means 99% of skiers. If you're really carving at a high level though, you're not entering these turns in balance. You are essentially and intentionally very out of balance. You're betting on a future of balance. The faster the speed, steeper the pitch, tighter the arc, the bigger the bet. But if you froze the skier at the beginning of the turn, and stopped any motion, they would fall to the ground. Assuming gravity. So saying "stay balanced" tells me essentially one is being very conservative, and looking to get a bit of carving somewhere, but it's not a fast arc. Can't be.

Look at this:

Photo by Ron LeMaster
Mikaela Shiffrin, FIS World Championships, Vail 2015
​

Between the transition and the next frame, let's say 1/5 of a second, she's gone from a flat ski to like 60 degrees of edge angle. She's also hugely inclined in that time period - she's way inside her skis. Between those two images there is little to no pressure. So she's made a big move inside the turn, betting on her skis are going to hold. No hold, no turn, and she's sliding downhill. There's only balance because of the speed and turn forces. Placed in that position with no motion you would just fall to the ground.

My point is that unless you're placing big bets on future balance, it's doubtful there's lots of carving going on. Placing those bets on super firm surfaces requires lots of experience and the equipment capable of handling the bet.

So I'm not sure I'm convinced that making a move in anticipation of future forces is equivalent to being out of balance. I think that might be what is needed to "stay in balance." I don't think it's different for mere mortals at slower speeds, just that the angles required are lower. We're still making anticipatory moves which could be considered "staying in balance" even though they aren't the same position you'd adopt to stay in static balance.

I'm also hazy when people talk about remaining balanced but don't mention which plane. You are talking about the frontal plane, or side-to-side balance. Maybe avoiding getting your weight too far back is more what the "stay in balance" people mean. If you don't get any pressure to the front of your skis you don't have much hope of carving in ice.

 

[cantunamunch]

So, let's see.
"Don't look" because it's too late. Great. Seriously?

yes. because the angles for spotting ice well ahead of when you enter it are just wrong. By the time you're close enough to see it, your momentum is too high to make drastic course corrections...or to stop.

Here is a sun table - pick your time of day. http://aa.usno.navy.mil/cgi-bin/aa_...th=1&day=15&intv_mag=10&state=VT&place=Ludlow

1pm near Ludlow on Jan. 15th? Sun is 25 degrees above the horizon. Say we have a 6 foot skier on a 30 degree slope. 25 degree sun angle and 30 degree slope means the reflection angle is 55 degrees above horizontal. In order to see the bright glinty icy patch a 6' skier has to be within (6'cos30)/tan(55) - that's within 3.6 feet of the ice.

What's the word for non-conservative skiing and being able to spot and correct one's course or speed within 3.6 feet? Unlikely? Absurd?

People on the lift will see it. The skier won't. Not before it's waaaay too late.

 

[RichGuo]

What I meant ice pitch is large sheet of ice which cover more or less half of steep slope , here is video I encountered last season when I was doing short turn on double diamonds missed an exit and entered the ice pitch, I stopped and search my toolbox, only way I can get down is straight down the slope. this slope was ski able during afternoon, but soon run out of snow.

 

[LiquidFeet]

Now that was entertaining.


Thank you, Rich, for thinking out of the box!

 

[Doug Briggs]

@James , when you respond to a recreational skiing question with answers referring to WC skiing style, you are offering oranges, when the OP wants apples. I know what you are getting at, but unless I was asking about how to improve my GS skills, you missed the mark. Most recreational skiers (RS) don't achieve the level of anticipation that you are discussing and illustrating.

Most pressure and opportunity to slide on ice is done after the skis have pointed down the hill as gravity and the turn are increasing the forces on the ski. In this portion of the turn skiers should be balanced so the dialog I agreed with from @cantunamunch, does jibe.

Having seen the OPs video demonstrating the type of ice he wants to be able to negotiate, my response would be balance is paramount. He addresses it by removing the lateral forces, knowing he can balance fore and aft and get down the pitch at speed.

I would have continued short turns, but would have let my skis get perpendicular to the fall line before pivoting them into the next turn. No anticipation, no getting inside the turn. Essentially, I'd be doing pivot slips. There would be some lateral movement across the hill but I would not let my speed build up and I wouldn't be trying to carve per se, but be quite content with brushed turns.

 

[Josh Matta]

Richard your leaning your entire body into the hill as well as rotating your upper body every turn... ......make it really hard to ski in general but on ice basically impossible.

 

[cantunamunch]

Now that was entertaining.

Night skiing

 

[Doug Briggs]

Richard your leaning your entire body into the hill as well as rotating your upper body every turn... ......make it really hard to ski in general but on ice basically impossible.

(respectfully) You have mad observation skills. I believe your observations but I learned more from looking at his shadow than from the fish eye view down his backside even after reading your remarks.

 

[RichGuo]

Night skiing

yeah, I did a lot night skiing last 3 seasons, encounterng small ice patch is norm. it does impact to confidence level somehow, but it integrate to my skiing. my big concern is when condition change dramatically during a day, one trail become un ski-able in few minutes will post big threat.

 

[Sibhusky]

It really didn't look that icy to me, but then I'm not used to looking at things backwards. Anyone got a time point when this ice shows up? How do you tell someone what to look for when the view presented is what they passed?

 

[RichGuo]

It really didn't look that icy to me, but then I'm not used to looking at things backwards. Anyone got a time point when this ice shows up? How do you tell someone what to look for when the view presented is what they passed?

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