How much material does an edge grinder remove?

[SlideWright]

Very nice profile sander (looks like a prototype that is 3D printed).

Thanks, but it is very much a tool that works and is accurate. The carbon infused PETG is very durable and definitely equal or better than backings for Moonflex diamonds and other plastic tuning tools or woodworking sanding backers, like profilers, palm & orbital sanders. It's more than adequate for this profile concept. Shims too.

For the compact edge tools, time will tell on durability, but certainly good for a pocket/travel tuner and/or for a budget/rec grade/intro option. It's certainly not a metal tool, but it works great with diamonds & stones, but I'm on the fence for serious filing. Moderate, OK.

 

[SlideWright]

I just got the FKS sidewall planer pictured above.
my old tool had easy adjustability both vertically and horizontally.
The FKS has obviously easy vertical adjustability, but I find the horizontal adjustability tedious and not precise.
What am I missing?

I can't say that I've found the perfect solution for the horizontal adjustability other than trial error. I put a little pressure on it with the knob so it slides with resistance and work it into just up from the edge, then gradually adjust down the vertical.

 

[oldschoolskier]

Thanks, but is very much a tool that works and is accurate. The carbon infused PETG is very durable and definitely equal or better than backings for Moonflex diamonds and other plastic tuning tools or woodworking sanding backers, like profilers, palm & orbital sanders. It's more than adequate for this profile concept. Shims too.

For the compact edge tools, time will tell on durability, but certainly good for a pocket/travel tuner and/or for a budget/rec grade/intro option. It's certainly not a metal tool, but it works great with diamonds & stones, but I'm on the fence for serious filing. Moderate, OK.

You should see some of the metal printing that can be done.....completely new level depending on the technology.

 

[SlideWright]

You should see some of the metal printing that can be done.....completely new level depending on the technology.

I'll bet. A friend had an ankle bone 3d printed. I'm afraid to look too deeply. It'll be yet another vast and fascinating rabbit hole I'd get stuck inside of......I do wish I had more metal fabrication options & abilities. I haven't even tried metal cutting with my CNC yet.

BTW, 60 grit SC sandpaper works very well and I like the smooth finish. Finer grit just like diamonds or stones as desired for even smoother finish:

(redder section was just wiped with water.)

 

[oldschoolskier]

Here is a teaser from a 2019 show, the newer options have gotten better (at the high end) and good quality cheaper machines are available.

The item on the left is part of a rocket nozzle that with other machining methods would not be possible.

Remember its only money down the rabbit hole.

 

[MikeHunt]

If you are detuning the tips and tails, you are not skiing the entire ski.

Many will say the ski is grabby without the detuning. My take on that is more along the line of skillset deficiency.

I don't have the skillset to respond in milliseconds to a grabby tip when I'm a tired and lazy skier at the end of day. Nor the general skillset to let go of a grabby tail anytime of the day.

Having cleared that up, what's your opinion to the original question?

Is not doing anything to the tip and tail same as detuning it? What if one just focuses on sharpening and sidewall stripping the part of the ski that the sidewall stripper can touch?

What if I don't touch the tip and tail, whether by a 7 degree guide and panzer and Razor Tune? Will there be problems in the future?

If there are no problems, that's one more thing I can eliminate from the tuning work flow.

 

[SlideWright]

Here is a teaser from a 2019 show, the newer options have gotten better (at the high end) and good quality cheaper machines are available.

The item on the left is part of a rocket nozzle that with other machining methods would not be possible.

Remember its only money down the rabbit hole.

View attachment 230016

Nice stuff. There is a metal infused plastic filament option that I shelved due to too many variables. Apparently, you’d print the object at some scale larger than the desired scale, send it to a 3rd party who ‘baked’ the objects that melted off the plastic and bonded the metal. Sounded like a PITA and spendy.

 

[Wilhelmson]

Nice stuff. There is a metal infused plastic filament option that I shelved due to too many variables. Apparently, you’d print the object at some scale larger than the desired scale, send it to a 3rd party who ‘baked’ the objects that melted off the plastic and bonded the metal. Sounded like a PITA and spendy.

I’m amazed at our local shops across the country that make these components out of titanium block or whatever.

 

[oldschoolskier]

Nice stuff. There is a metal infused plastic filament option that I shelved due to too many variables. Apparently, you’d print the object at some scale larger than the desired scale, send it to a 3rd party who ‘baked’ the objects that melted off the plastic and bonded the metal. Sounded like a PITA and spendy.

Apparently the newer version allows baking at home and very little up scaling for shrinkage is required.

Baking at home has its own risks as wife approval is required

Going to the metal working trader shows, shows the leaps and bounds things are taking in the last 20 years as hobbyists try and copy the the commercial equipment cheaply which only forces the commercial equipment to advance to stay ahead of the hobbyists.

10 years ago 500 ipm was amazing, now you are seen upwards of 2000+ ipm in the hardest materials with tolerances and finishes that blow your mind on just one machine that are a 1/10 of the cost as from the older machines.

Sorry for the side track, this technology is in part what allows the precision ski tuning machines we see today. They also suffer from good operators and properly trained skilled people.

 

[Deadslow]

I sharpen my edges maybe 20 or 30 times a year with a Swix Evo Pro edge grinder and I became curious about how many times I could grind before I went through the edge. I relaized I could measure the depth of cut with a test indicator on this jig I made several years ago to measure spoke tension in bicycle wheels:


View attachment 229468


First, I ground the edge to 88d with the medium wheel, then I ground a 40mm length of the edge 10 times with the medium wheel, and another section with the fine wheel:

View attachment 229476


. The depth of the fine cut was .002:

View attachment 229477

The medium was more than .003, almost double:

View attachment 229478

I made several measurements and they were all mostly consistent, with a few outliers due to operator error. It looks like the fine wheel takes about 0.0002 with each pass, the medium a little less than 0.0004. A new edge is about .06 inches wide, so I should be able to grind it 300 times with the fine stone, or 150 times with the medium. Based on that. I'm gonna mostly use the fine wheel every 2 or 3 days, and the medium only when the edges get too dull or when I expect very hard conditions.

dm

Following DM’s initial supposition - as to how much material is removed / how many sharpenings.

Assume edge is .06 inches thick (approx. 1.5mm)

Assume effective amount of ‘sharpenable’ edge is 1.0 mm

From DM – medium stone removes approx. 0.0004 in (approx. 0.01 mm)

Lets assume 2 passes per sharpening session. (material removed ~ 0.02 mm)

So sharpenable edge / material removed per session = 1.0 / .02 = 50 sharpenings

If you sharpen every two days, the skis edge will ‘last’ 100 ski days.

(this all just summarizes what DM put forth)

After 100 ski days – a front side / race / carver – will be shot before you run out of edge.

SO USE YOUR GRINDER TO SHARPEN AWAY AND ENJOY THOSE EDGES!

 

[Marker]

I’ve taken to using gloves when working the top sheet/sidewall junction and doing other shaping. Just got tired of little pieces of fiberglass or too sheet or aluminum stuck in my hands. However at least half the time I just start without or don’t bother till it’s too late and I’ve got sharp bits sticking in.


Yeah I’ll say. It’s a turd. I like the Beast Pro though.

Really? I mean we are just planing the sidewall, and the applied pressure and use of the tool is more critical in my experience. I do use the Beast Pro with 2 and 3° plates to tune the side edges.

 

[James]

Really? I mean we are just planing the sidewall, and the applied pressure and use of the tool is more critical in my experience. I do use the Beast Pro with 2 and 3° plates to tune the side edges.

Sidewall planing is like a vacation with the Fks planer and pulling long curling strips.

We’re not talking about that. We’re referring to shaping the ski which throws off large amounts of aluminum and fiberglass and other bits of plastic.

 

[MikeHunt]

Sidewall planing is like a vacation with the Fks planer and pulling long curling strips.

We’re not talking about that. We’re referring to shaping the ski which throws off large amounts of aluminum and fiberglass and other bits of plastic.

For those who don't know, this is the shaping being talked about.

Can this step be skipped and just do "main" sidewall? Precisely because of the mess it makes. Also if I like a detuned tip and tail.

 

[MikeHunt]

Also I wonder if it's possible to order a 7 degree shim from Razor Tune? They 3d print custom shim angles on request. Then use extra course wheel with that 7 degree shim to shape tips and tails? Or will that only melt the topsheet plastic as the motor and wheel rotation is too fast?

 

[KingGrump]

Is not doing anything to the tip and tail same as detuning it? What if one just focuses on sharpening and sidewall stripping the part of the ski that the sidewall stripper can touch?

What if I don't touch the tip and tail, whether by a 7 degree guide and panzer and Razor Tune? Will there be problems in the future?

Not doing anything to the tip is generally better than detuning. Once a pair of skis been detuned tip and tail, it's usually really difficult to return those areas to any sort of sharpness. Most detuning consist of hitting the sharp edge at a 45° with a file or stone. Ouch.

Usually when sharpening side edge with the Razor tune, the grinder will run off at the tip and tail upturn. The termination of the sharpened edge is pretty abrupt..
When the ski is tipped over, the untuned portion of the tip will not provide a smooth transition to the sharpened portion of the side edge. Some skier will feel it, some won't.

Also I wonder if it's possible to order a 7 degree shim from Razor Tune? They 3d print custom shim angles on request. Then use extra course wheel with that 7 degree shim to shape tips and tails? Or will that only melt the topsheet plastic as the motor and wheel rotation is too fast?

The typical ski tip has lots of plastic/rubber in the tip. Very often one or more titanal sheets. Th grinding wheels are designed for steel. The rubber/plastic will smear and make a mess of the ski. The rubber/plastic and titanal will load up the wheel. Making the grinding wheel ineffective.

Typical ski tip showing rubber damping material and titanal layer.

A Razor-Tune will not and cannot replace the hand tools required for a good tune. It can take out much of the grudge work. The hand tools and Razor-tune actually compliment each other to provide a good tune.

 

[MikeHunt]

I think the owner of Razor Tune should consider adding a fiber glass wheel option that can be used for topsheet shaping.

Also make shim swapping easier by using a clip mechanism instead of the current fiddly screw. That way Razor Tune can be used for side edge sharpening and top sheet shaping at the flick of a clip.

I will email him my suggestions for Razor Tune 2.0.

 

[KingGrump]

I think the owner of Razor Tune should consider adding a fiber glass wheel option that can be used for topsheet shaping.

Also make shim swapping easier by using a clip mechanism instead of the current fiddly screw. That way Razor Tune can be used for side edge sharpening and top sheet shaping at the flick of a clip.

I will email him my suggestions for Razor Tune 2.0.

The glaring deficiency in you suggestion of taking a Razor-tune to the tip an tail sidewalls is the guide bearing will no longer be securely riding on the ski edge. Better off taking a 4-1/2" grinder with a flap wheel to the ski.

Not every tool needed to be powered. Often the quickest and simplest solution are hand tools.

I have spent decade plus in IT, so I am OK with a keyboard. I have also spent several decades in the construction business. Most of it in public sector. Based on my experience, I would say you have no clue when it comes to tools whether their usage, capacities and limitations. The actual work process - forgetaboutit.

Reminded me why I exited the residential market early on. Can't deal with the harebrained ideas of the home owners. In Public sector work, the architects and engineers involved are at least versed in the project and are rational beings (most of the time).

 

[MikeHunt]

The glaring deficiency in you suggestion of taking a Razor-tune to the tip an tail sidewalls is the guide bearing will no longer be securely riding on the ski edge. Better off taking a 4-1/2" grinder with a flap wheel to the ski.

Not every tool needed to be powered. Often the quickest and simplest solution are hand tools.

I have spent decade plus in IT, so I am OK with a keyboard. I have also spent several decades in the construction business. Most of it in public sector. Based on my experience, I would say you have no clue when it comes to tools whether their usage, capacities and limitations. The actual work process - forgetaboutit.

Reminded me why I exited the residential market early on. Can't deal with the harebrained ideas of the home owners. In Public sector work, the architects and engineers involved are at least versed in the project and are rational beings (most of the time).

The owner of Razor Tune will figure it out he's a genius unlike us. He can imagine solutions and possibilities that mere mortals cannot see and design it in a way that would make us (you) say "hey, why didn't I think of that?"

 

[James]

For those who don't know, this is the shaping being talked about.

Can this step be skipped and just do "main" sidewall? Precisely because of the mess it makes. Also if I like a detuned tip and tail.

If you ski wide stance, don’t do moguls. Yes. Or some skis are kind of already done. What are we talking here?
The last time I skipped this on my slalom skis because I just want to ski them. After one day they looked pretty bad with chips. I had to use epoxy and fill and shape. It some people ski for years and will never chip.

Top sheets can be damn sharp. One time I had a chip in the top sheet that was bent up a little. Carrying skis to my car, I sliced my hand on it. I had blood dripping down and had to ask a guy next to me to get the keys out of my pocket so I didn’t smear blood all over it.

You don’t need a “topsheet file guide”. Plus that video - marking the topsheet for...? So it’s exactly symmetrical? Absurd if you own the ski. I take like a 12 inch pansar file and go at it. I do prefer a pretty rough sanding spindle on a drill. A sander on a low powered grinder or adjustable speed grinder is not a bad idea.

 

[SlideWright]

The glaring deficiency in you suggestion of taking a Razor-tune to the tip an tail sidewalls is the guide bearing will no longer be securely riding on the ski edge. Better off taking a 4-1/2" grinder with a flap wheel to the ski.

Well.….it is very effective and quick. It’s no different results by hand or carefully grinding with a flapper wheel.