Drills for fore-aft pressure?

[Josh Matta]

the difference is braquage has lateral displacement a pivot slip does not.

 

[jack97]

in order too feel fore/aft pressure you need to find the center (of your stance). again another visual of some drills mentioned.

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[Josh Matta]

lol he literally did like half of my drills in a one minute time span. The sideslip 1000 step was quite entertaining.

 

[jack97]

the difference is braquage has lateral displacement a pivot slip does not.

yes but the common theme in the two in terms of being center on is the same. With pivot slips you can add in momentary edge sets.

lol he literally did like half of my drills in a one minute time span. The sideslip 1000 step was quite entertaining.

I like his warmups as well. Anyone can embed those centering drills into a warmup.

 

[Erik Timmerman]

the difference is braquage has lateral displacement a pivot slip does not.

I could be wrong about this, but I've always thought that brauquage is the action of the legs that allows the pivot slip to happen. You could be using it in a pivot slip or in a short radius turn, it's not really a drill in and of itself. It may be treated as such though, and is often used as a synonym for a pivot-slip.

 

[Doby Man]

so @Doby Man you says you pressure the shovels by moving your COM forward which is pressure being what we feel when we move our COM to where it needs to be?

Can you name one instance when pressure is not an outcome of balance, edging and rotary moves?

No, which is exactly why pressuring the ski is so important. Other than lateral movements for tipping, every other movement we facilitate is for creating and managing the pressure between the snow an ski. We can't substitute the term "balance" with the term "pressure" as they are two different entities that rely on each other. You can't have one without the other. It is the pressure that we are balancing over. We are not really balancing over the ski but rather balancing over the pressure we create from ground force reaction. However, the output of created and manged pressure is where the real savvy of technique produces effortlessness in our movements by using ground force reaction to power most of our movements rather than muscular effort.

 

[Kneale Brownson]

When my first ski school director, a former French national team member, introduced me to his progression for "braquage", we started on almost flat terrain with the butt below the knees, skis equally weighted, and pivoted just the feet in little jerks. Then we stood normally so the knees moved laterally to allow a complete smooth pivot.

 

[LiquidFeet]

When my first ski school director, a former French national team member, introduced me to his progression for "braquage", we started on almost flat terrain with the butt below the knees, skis equally weighted, and pivoted just the feet in little jerks. Then we stood normally so the knees moved laterally to allow a complete smooth pivot.

I'm having trouble envisioning this.
Skier sits back with butt below knees, on flat terrain, forcing skis to pivot with muscular effort in little rotary jerks?

 

[Kneale Brownson]

Maximum knee flex with chest on thighs

 

[Doby Man]

It is also somewhat of a casual vintage freestyle maneuver. I've seen it on the flats but here is a Plake demo on a bump (at :54):

 

[jack97]

I could be wrong about this, but I've always thought that brauquage is the action of the legs that allows the pivot slip to happen. You could be using it in a pivot slip or in a short radius turn, it's not really a drill in and of itself. It may be treated as such though, and is often used as a synonym for a pivot-slip.

OK... time for the mandatory hijack for each thread. Not sure myself. Attached is Lemaster's tribute to Joubert one of the pioneers where the term Braquage was used, leg rotation, see page 27. And now its evolve by the Canadian as a drill which promotes leg rotation.

http://www.ronlemaster.com/presentations/Georges-Joubert-Remembered-Vail-1-2011.pdf

There was a time when someone showed me pivot slips that had the lateral displacement as well.

Anyone noticed the nuisances of some of the demonstrator during transition, using an up movement or keep the hip and knee flexed throughout. Not sure if a separate names are needed for these as well.

 

[Chris Geib]

My understanding is the same as epic: Braquage and independent leg steering are the same utilizing the fulcrum mechanism that Joubert described, with pivot slips being a drill that primarily focuses these skills, but require accurate - and independent - edging and pressure management (or balance, Josh) to be successful.

Yes, did notice the differences between the demonstrators. The displacement would typically be an indication of not being centered. I would describe the first demonstrator as moving fore & aft while executing and using split rotation. Specifically from the edge set he moves up & forward and starts with rotation to get things started, then finishes with a combination of leg steering and counter rotation while settling back to a new edge set, rinse repeat. Watch the initial turn for a classic rotary push off, then the rest are the same just less obvious.

Compare him to the initial demonstrator in the PSIA video - Ric Reiter. Ric is not “setting” an edge and slips continuously. Compare the differences in ski lead. Notice how the first demonstrator does a tele entry as he begins with the whole body rotating into the turn, then again finishes with a tele turn as the hips are counter rotated into the turn at the end. Ric is generally rotating each ski about the tibial axis of each leg so the ski lead changes continuously. For most of us there will inevitably be some rotation of or windup of the pelvis to an anticipated position at the the end of each rotation to get the skis fully to 90degrees across the fall line. Again compare the two, the first demonstrator pushes the outside ski around with rotation & counter rotation at the beginning and end respectively vs Ric pulls the pelvis around with the feet/leg rotation at the end, then when reversing the feet/legs start turning first before the anticipation in the torso unwinds. The first demonstrator rotates about the shovel of ski because of his forward bias (creating the displacement) vs Ric generally rotating centered under each foot and able to slip straight down the fall line without moving out of the corridor of basically the length of his skis.

A couple interesting indicators for pivot slips…

If you need an edge set, then likely you aint doing it. If you are doing it, you should be able to stop, pause and restart (in either direction) the rotation at any time while continuously slipping without an edge set …example stop at 30degrees then resume, stop at 45degrees then reverse, etc.

No separate names needed...

Slip fast, pivot slow!

 

[crgildart]

It is also somewhat of a casual vintage freestyle maneuver. I've seen it on the flats but here is a Plake demo on a bump (at :54):

 

[LiquidFeet]

Slow dog noodle!
Fun, wish I could do that,
but those are not exactly pivot slips.

 

[James]

True, if we were talking about too much forward pressure, buttering the tails around, but the context was about being centered and experimenting with tactics to get you there, most skiers don’t have issues with too much forward pressure, they have issues with too little, resulting in the aft movement of their COM as they progress through the turn. Constant forward pressure by squeezing the tongue is but one tactic to overcome that.

Unless we are just back to saying “get centered over your skis” without any tactics to get you there.

Well, pretty much we are at centered in your boots. You'll end up in the front at some point in the turn. There's tons of drills there to do it. Notice that almost all the drills here are done either centered or exploring fore/aft. The constant obsession of instructors to be crushing the front of the boot to "get forward" never works. Or they just ski crammed in the front of the boots sliding the tails.

It's always the same people working on "not being aft", yet they never ski "forward". These same people have trouble with all the drills just posted. Even the simple side slip. Sorry, but one can simply not advance beyond an intermediate if you can not sideslip till you are bored to death. Or side slip, then steer the tips downhill and bring them around. A turn. The same people worrying about being "forward" all the time usually can't do railroad tracks on a trail with limited width. Why? Because they don't anticipate and move into the new turn before, (or ever), they get close to the trail edge. Then it's too late. If you can't do that, you likely never get the concept of falling into the future or balancing in the future. Whichever term works.

If you ski by pushing the tails out- well, aft by definition. No secret tip, or esoteric drill from that guy living in a snow cave off the trail in Sun Valley is going to get you forward. Learn to guide your tips. "Left tip left to turn left" About as simple as skiing gets.

Want to get someone "forward"? Do uphill arcs. Lasting is another issue.
Everyone has their pitch at which they need to talk them selves into letting the body go down hill and releasing the edges. For beginners it's not much. Advanced skiers it's in the 30 degrees or low 40's.
It's called "downhill skiing" All the parts have to go. Unfortunately it's the body first usually. Your skis can't go while your body stays uphill. That's what people usually do when they have issues side slipping.

Release, release, release. Your body will do something to turn, even if it's falling, releasing is a different story. We don't want to. That's why so many of these drills have some sort of release in them.

All these things are related to "the problem".

in order too feel fore/aft pressure you need to find the center (of your stance). again another visual of some drills mentioned.

.

I've always loved the way that guy talks! Mid western Canadian? And he has something to say. It's not like you have to wade through a half hour of thick French Candian accent to get one sentence of meaning.

 

[Magi]

I could be wrong about this, but I've always thought that brauquage is the action of the legs that allows the pivot slip to happen. You could be using it in a pivot slip or in a short radius turn, it's not really a drill in and of itself. It may be treated as such though, and is often used as a synonym for a pivot-slip.

FWIW I happened to ask one of the people who helped write the Alpine technical manual what the definition of braucague is today (hadn't seen this thread), and his definition basically matched yours.

Paraphrasing: It comes from a French instructor decades ago who helped write some of the early "how to ski" books, and referred to what racers did to turn well (rotating the feet/legs under a stable pelvis/upper body)

 

[James]

Apparently braquage can be just one leg at a time.
From the Joubert book, Teach Yourself to Ski, 1970, in the LeMaster presentation.

 

[Chris Geib]

Interesting. That photo is on page 48 of my copy and I had not caught that reference before.

This image is from Georges Joubert, Skiing An Art... A Technique, 1978

 

[jack97]

Compare him to the initial demonstrator in the PSIA video - Ric Reiter. Ric is not “setting” an edge and slips continuously. Compare the differences in ski lead. Notice how the first demonstrator does a tele entry as he begins with the whole body rotating into the turn, then again finishes with a tele turn as the hips are counter rotated into the turn at the end. Ric is generally rotating each ski about the tibial axis of each leg so the ski lead changes continuously. For most of us there will inevitably be some rotation of or windup of the pelvis to an anticipated position at the the end of each rotation to get the skis fully to 90degrees across the fall line. Again compare the two, the first demonstrator pushes the outside ski around with rotation & counter rotation at the beginning and end respectively vs Ric pulls the pelvis around with the feet/leg rotation at the end, then when reversing the feet/legs start turning first before the anticipation in the torso unwinds. The first demonstrator rotates about the shovel of ski because of his forward bias (creating the displacement) vs Ric generally rotating centered under each foot and able to slip straight down the fall line without moving out of the corridor of basically the length of his skis.

lol... i knew this had the makings of a hijack, my apologies to the op. So is the intent of the pivot slip to control the movement of the pelvis to rotate about the femur?

 

[LiquidFeet]

lol... i knew this had the makings of a hijack, my apologies to the op. So is the intent of the pivot slip to control the movement of the pelvis to rotate about the femur?

The pivot slip doesn't work unless all kinds of things are working together with precision timing. Learning to do the pivot slip involves learning how to get these working ducks in a row. Instructors use the pivot slip with students for all these things, but the usual instructional intent is pivoting the skis without turning the hips and upper body.

When students attempt it, they may get some success in pivoting the skis back and forth without pivoting the upper body. But they are not likely to to produce a Ric Reiter pivot slip. They probably will not produce a pivot slip by any definition. They will get a pivoted turn entry. (In some instructional circles this is a thorny issue, this intentionally pivoted turn entry, but it's not an issue in others.)

--A "good" pivot slip has the skier traveling straight down the hill in a corridor the width of the ski length ...
-- ...while pivoting the skis back and forth.
--That pivot slip also has the skier's upper body (from the hips up, including the pelvis) not turning much.
--The feet pivot but do not move left-right; like wheels on a train, each foot moves on its respective train track.

Getting all these things to happen is a worthy enterprise. To do this, the skier can't be aft along the length of the skis, and the skier needs to keep the body weight between the skis uphill-downhill-wise. These two ways of being aft (on the skis, and on the hill) keep people who can pivot the skis under a stable upper body from succeeding in getting a "good" pivot slip that travels straight downhill inside that narrow corridor. They will get a proto-pivot-slip that travels down the hill with some left-right travel.

Using an edge-set with the pivot slip allows a skier to be aft-on-the-hill at the end of each pivot, then to project themselves fore-down-the-hill at the start of the next pivot. The skier rocks fore-aft in the downhill direction. To do an "excellent" pivot slip with Ric-Reiter-style smoothness, without the edge set as @Chris Geib explains upthread, requires that the skier work on smoothly moving the feet around under a continually centered (on-the-hill) upper body.

These are the working ducks of the pivot slip. Plus managing the edging. Getting it to work well is an advanced skill for these reasons.