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Drills for fore-aft pressure?

Erik Timmerman

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Jeb Boyd once told me that you don't need to know a ton of drills, but the ones that you do use you should know intimately and be able to use them in a variety of situations. The pivot slip is pretty versatile and you could whip it out for lots of students. I think one problem with it is that it kind of needs an outside set of eyes to tell the person doing it if they are doing it right or not. You could get pretty good at "doing it wrong" and not even know it. When I am using it with a student I always want to remind the student that nobody cares if they can do a pivot slip or not. I certainly don't care. The only thing that matters is if they are able to feel what I want them to feel in that moment and are able to bring it to their skiing. So things like edgiest or not, flexion-extension and so on don't matter unless there is someone scoring you (and maybe not then either).
 

Josh Matta

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I would contend a good pivot slip is slight aft on the skis on when ski are pointing across the hill, and very far forward on the skis when they are pointing down the hill.
 

James

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Interesting. That photo is on page 48 of my copy and I had not caught that reference before.

This image is from Georges Joubert, Skiing An Art... A Technique, 1978

View attachment 36662
Well that's clear as mud. There's a whole new term there - "vissage".
What does he say about that?

I would contend a good pivot slip is slight aft on the skis on when ski are pointing across the hill, and very far forward on the skis when they are pointing down the hill.
How is that?
 

Chris Geib

cgeib
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Jeb Boyd once told me that you don't need to know a ton of drills, but the ones that you do use you should know intimately and be able to use them in a variety of situations. The pivot slip is pretty versatile and you could whip it out for lots of students. I think one problem with it is that it kind of needs an outside set of eyes to tell the person doing it if they are doing it right or not. You could get pretty good at "doing it wrong" and not even know it. When I am using it with a student I always want to remind the student that nobody cares if they can do a pivot slip or not. I certainly don't care. The only thing that matters is if they are able to feel what I want them to feel in that moment and are able to bring it to their skiing. So things like edgiest or not, flexion-extension and so on don't matter unless there is someone scoring you (and maybe not then either).

:thumb:


I would contend a good pivot slip is slight aft on the skis on when ski are pointing across the hill, and very far forward on the skis when they are pointing down the hill.

From an external observer standing in the trees watching the skier pass by point of view, I would agree with this.

From the skier's frame of reference I would agree there is a fair amount of movement fore/aft however I would contend the movement results in the skier maintaining centered balance. When the skis are across the hill there is greater resistance so they will move back (uphill) to maintain their balance as you would when standing on a bus or train that is braking. As you turn the skis into the fall line that train will take off and you need to move with it in order to keep up and stay centered.

Also, from another point of view, being centered will often be considered aft!

As @LiquidFeet describes, there is a bit going on. And as @epic states, really easy to get good at doing it wrong!

Well that's clear as mud. There's a whole new term there - "vissage".
What does he say about that?

Eh, hard to paraphrase Joubert! Basically turning the upper and lower body against one another with consideration for resistance underfoot, use of the arms, effect of pole plant. So, counter rotation+
 

James

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From an external observer standing in the trees watching the skier pass by point of view, I would agree with this.

From the skier's frame of reference I would agree there is a fair amount of movement fore/aft however I would contend the movement results in the skier maintaining centered balance. When the skis are across the hill there is greater resistance so they will move back (uphill) to maintain their balance as you would when standing on a bus or train that is braking. As you turn the skis into the fall line that train will take off and you need to move with it in order to keep up and stay centered.

Also, from another point of view, being centered will often be considered aft.

Eh, hard to paraphrase Joubert! Basically turning the upper and lower body against one another with consideration for resistance underfoot, use of the arms, effect of pole plant. So, counter rotation+
It translates as "screw".
Certainly @Bob Barnes must have video from multiple angles of pivot slips. A drone shot would be nice. Plus, since likely he has locks of Joubert's hair in a shrine at Aspen, he could weigh in on the muddy waters of French terms.

To bring it back to fore/aft, all these drills require awareness of what your body is doing and where it needs to be in the next moment as things will change.
Another activity for centeredness is sidestepping up a very steep micro pitch. Like a mound at the side of the trail, near a lift etc. Getting up that requires knowing and adjusting the tipping angle of your skis, where your weight is, and tipping the uphill foot into the hill so you can stand on the edge. I should start doing it without poles, but 97% fail with.
 
Last edited:

Blue Streak

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Jeb Boyd once told me that you don't need to know a ton of drills, but the ones that you do use you should know intimately and be able to use them in a variety of situations. The pivot slip is pretty versatile and you could whip it out for lots of students. I think one problem with it is that it kind of needs an outside set of eyes to tell the person doing it if they are doing it right or not. You could get pretty good at "doing it wrong" and not even know it. When I am using it with a student I always want to remind the student that nobody cares if they can do a pivot slip or not. I certainly don't care. The only thing that matters is if they are able to feel what I want them to feel in that moment and are able to bring it to their skiing. So things like edgiest or not, flexion-extension and so on don't matter unless there is someone scoring you (and maybe not then either).
Got a master class in pivot slips in 9" of crud from Jenn Metz yesterday:hail:
 

LiquidFeet

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....
From the skier's frame of reference I would agree there is a fair amount of movement fore/aft however I would contend the movement results in the skier maintaining centered balance. When the skis are across the hill there is greater resistance so they will move back (uphill) to maintain their balance as you would when standing on a bus or train that is braking. As you turn the skis into the fall line that train will take off and you need to move with it in order to keep up and stay centered.....

The thing that finally got my pivot slips smooth was pulling the new inside foot back uphill as I pivoted it. If it's pulled back uphill, and the other foot isn't, then your body weight is kept between the two feet "on the hill" (uphill-downhill-wise). No need to rock the body uphill-downhill at all; just move one foot at a time uphill of the body on its train track.

At the end of the last pivot, rotate and pull back uphill the new inside foot.
Repeat in the other direction. Or...

Left, pivot and pull-back-uphill the left foot (on its track);
Right, pivot and pull-back the right foot (on its track);
Repeat.

As stated upthread by Chris Geib,
Slip fast, pivot slow!
 

Corgski

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Dolphin Turns - Advanced Skiing Drills for Balance
Well shot video. He makes it look easy!

Aaargh, if that is what I have to do to fix my fore aft balance, I may as well quit now. Someone should produce a skill drill parody video where some absurdly complex expert maneuver is used to fix some simple beginner error and see how many people fall for it. On the other hand, I've seen enough skill drill videos to suspect that this has already been done.:D
 

Josh Matta

Skiing the powder
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yeah if you go back and read my post......dolphins turns are an expert move, they are not going to fix anything but will add to someones already good fore and aft balance.
 

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