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Roger

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Does anyone know the cost of a ski resort? I know they are all different with how much each resort has but with other conversations of how do we bring back skiers to the slopes everyone says pricing is the big reason why people stay away....Just curious are they able to bring down the costs. I see some of these resorts being sold for huge amounts of money so there must be a lot of money able to be made. Wasn't sure if numbers have ever been released from the big resorts.
 

Posaune

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What do you mean by cost? Is it the purchase price? The operation expenses? What it costs an individual to visit? Profit margin? Hard to discuss without a clear understanding of the question.
 
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Roger

Roger

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What do you mean by cost? Is it the purchase price? The operation expenses? What it costs an individual to visit? Profit margin? Hard to discuss without a clear understanding of the question.

Annual Operating expenses mostly.

I am just curious if its feasible for resorts to lower the costs of lift tickets without going into the Red. Obviously lowered costs will bring in more people but does lowering the cost of tickets bring in more money? 10 people at $150 is $1500 and 100 people at $10 is $1500 but 50 people at $75 is $3750.

Hard to explain exactly where I'm going with this on a forum but hope you understand lol
 
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Goose

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Investment firms and corporations don't always make major purchases or merger based on that businesses profits. Its all a numbers game and many times is about other things and even personal gain.

But who except those who have actually owned a resort can say what it truly costs to own and operate. I only know from being in small businesses in the past that whatever anyone thinks they know about how much it costs to own and operate a business doesn't really have any real idea till they actually do it. Its always far greater expense than one thinks it is. And when talking major establishments like a ski resort id imagine the only ones who truly understand are the ones who actually do just that. So I wont pretend I know. All I do know is that its probably much more than I realize.

That's not to say there is no greed involved nor excessive greed. That can come within any business and/or corporation and from any individual/s. But two different subjects here really.
 

djetok

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Insurance has to be a huge expense. A company like Vail resorts obviously has a leg up on a single hill resort.
 

Core2

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Ski areas and ski resorts are very different things when you start talking financials.
 

LKLA

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Annual Operating expenses mostly.

I am just curious if its feasible for resorts are able to lower the costs of lift tickets without going into the Red. Obviously lowered costs will bring in more people but does lowering the cost of tickets bring in more money? 10 people at $150 is $1500 and 100 people at $10 is $1500 but 50 people at $75 is $3750.

Hard to explain exactly where I'm going with this on a forum but hope you understand lol

Why would they lower tickets prices? Where is the proof that more people would buy tickets and offset the loss incurred by the price reduction? If you lower prices by 10% where is the "proof" that it will indeed result in a 15% increase in skiers?

I would think that if anyone has the information/data and knows the answer to this that it would be the operators themselves. They would be the most in tune with the price elasticity of their industry, their region, their unique offering (keep in mind that pricing will be based on different variables/drivers between a resort like Jack Frost and a resort such as Jackson Hole).

They look at all their revenue sources and carefully see where they have synergies or opportunities to raise (rarely lower) prices. Maybe they find that there is a high correlation between catering costs and conference/convention business, so they decide to lower food and beverage prices by 10% and increase private room rentals by 10% hoping to gain conference/convention business and come out making more money.

To try and answer your question, it seems getting people on the ski slopes is much more weather related than anything else. And local hills, which account for over 75% of the ~450 ski areas in the US are pretty cheap. Look at a place like Paoli Peaks - they have $36 lift tickets. Not sure how much lower than can go! Or look at a place like Attitash - you can buy a ticket at the window for around $60. Still pretty reasonable. Reminds me of movie theaters - the main driver to get people to come see movies is the quality of the movie slate. People will pay $7, $10, $12, $15 to see a good movie. Of course there is a breaking point - whatever that is.

Ski resorts have two "issues" though. One is that they have very high fixed costs. The second is that they have very high CAPEX (capital expenditures).

Lots or little snow, made by mother nature or made by man, as long as a resort is open most of their costs are fixed. Perhaps as high as 75%. They still need 80-90% of the staff even if it's a slow day. They still need to run the lifts even if 50% of the chairs are empty. They still need to turn on the lights in the locker room even if it only 1/3 occupied... Lots of snow means BOTH more skiers and less money spent on snow making with very little added costs. A perfect combination for a business model with high fixed costs since revenues increase with more skiers (across most/all revenue streams - tickets, food, lessons, retail, lodging, parking, rentals....) and expenses per skier decrease due to the lack of snow making (energy, staff, pushing around snow,...) and leverage that can be attained from the high degree of fixed costs. Of course no snow likely means no skiers, which usually means snow making and very little cost cutting, the last scenario ski resort operators want.

And if there is tons of snow people will pay just about anything. And if conditions are terrible, you might not be able to pay people to get out and ski. So pricing matters - always does - but perhaps not much in this case. Weather/conditions matters more.

As it relates to CAPEX - money used to acquire or upgrade things like property, buildings or equipment - there are very few years where a resort does not require some significant investment of one type or another. As an example, Vail Resorts spent $143 million in 2017 on its resorts - from $6 million on Epic Discovery to $65 million in basic maintenance.

Using Vail Resorts again, they made almost $2 billion in sales last year and ended with around $200 million in net income (profit). So that is a 10% margin. After all was said and done, they barely made $200 million after selling TWO BILLION worth of lessons, tickets, expensive clam chowder and the like.

I guess there could be more dynamic pricing but there is already a lot of pricing optionality. Be it early bird season passes or regular season passes or multi-day tickets or last minute at the window tickets, the industry is ahead of most others when it comes to pricing.

And ticket costs are just one variable of the overall cost of skiing. It seems the issue with skiing other than weather is overall cost, not just the cost of tickets. For many of us going skiing is a pretty expensive proposition, but not because of the price of ski tickets/season passes. Rather, because it usually involves lots of driving or flying, eating out, replacing expensive equipment and gear, having to stay at a hotel... In fact for many of us the price of the ticket is the least of our worries. For example, I can buy the Epic Pass for $859 and even if I ski 20 days the average ticket would be $40. But skiing 20 days would also likely mean that I would spend 18-20 days at a hotel and likely spend a couple hundred bucks on gas and a grand or two on airline tickets.

So while I would love for ticket prices to go down :huh: I am not sure that it would be a good business move from the resort operators' perspective.
 
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DanoT

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Vail Resorts have figured out the new ski resort business model. It involves jacking up the walk up day ticket price and discounting season passes. Thus, typically you just need 8-10 or so days of skiing to cover the cost of a pass.

The other thing they can do with a high priced lift ticket is discount it when combined with a night's lodging.

And yet another thing that resorts are doing are selling discounted lift tickets on line in advance for specific days with the deepest discount being giving the further in advance the purchase is made. I have seen 41% discount for buying 2 weeks in advance.
 

Goose

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I wonder if any place has ever tried dynamic pricing based on daily conditions... i.e. $75 on a typical day, $150 on a powder day.
not so sure how bad that would be to the first timers and/or newly involved. bad enough paying top dollars on weekends and holidays which is when most can even go in the first place. Now add a cost due to conditions? that could be dangerous. I understand it could work the other way too but whoever is going to say "come on down to poorer conditions for a discount". Kind of goes against the model of a resorts marketing which will always try to exaggerate conditions as max as they could without technically lying.
 

David Chaus

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I wonder if any place has ever tried dynamic pricing based on daily conditions... i.e. $75 on a typical day, $150 on a powder day.

When I was was in Utah in early season 2013 I think, around Christmas, at Snowbasin there were discounts from their usual pricing as the only major lift operating was the Needles gondola (plus Middle Bowl, Porcupine and Little Cat). Then they bumped the daily ticket rate to normal pricing when they opened up the Becker, an old fixed grip chair, even though the Strawberry gondola and John Paul express lifts weren’t running yet. So full price with basically 1/3 of the total resort available. :nono:

Still had fun, though. ‘Cuz I’m a skier and I was on snow. :daffy:
 

DanoT

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I wonder if any place has ever tried dynamic pricing based on daily conditions... i.e. $75 on a typical day, $150 on a powder day.

Hiring a ski instructor on a powder day at a busy resort as a lift line crashing enabler works better, for the skier and the instructor and no doubt the resort as well. At Copper they have deal where if you stayed at a certain lodge you could crash lift lines and load early.

Fernie, years ago had a blurb on their brochure that stated that if you are not satisfied with conditions and return to the ticket booth within 20 minutes of purchasing a ticket, you could get a voucher for a different day of skiing. In other words what they did not want to state: they offered a rain check. I don't know if they still do this. I do know that nowadays they still get the same amount of rain, or more.
 

DanoT

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When I was was in Utah in early season 2013 I think, around Christmas, at Snowbasin there were discounts from their usual pricing as the only major lift operating was the Needles gondola (plus Middle Bowl, Porcupine and Little Cat). Then they bumped the daily ticket rate to normal pricing when they opened up the Becker, an old fixed grip chair, even though the Strawberry gondola and John Paul express lifts weren’t running yet. So full price with basically 1/3 of the total resort available. :nono:

Still had fun, though. ‘Cuz I’m a skier and I was on snow. :daffy:

Whistler (pre Vail ownership) discounts lift tickets when there is a poor early season. That way a lift ticket costs about the same as a full price ticket at the rest of B.C.s resorts.:P The other resorts also discount lift tickets if the skiing is limited.
 

dbostedo

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Hiring a ski instructor on a powder day at a busy resort as a lift line crashing enabler works better, for the skier and the instructor and no doubt the resort as well.

Well in that case, you're paying for special access, and it's a LOT more than a regular lift ticket, and it can happen at any time. I'm talking about pricing based on conditions, and not getting any other special priveleges.

For example, let's pretend that Copper and Keystone typically get the same number of visitors on "typical" days. But on powder days, Copper gets double the visitors that Keystone gets. If that were true, Copper could theoretically increase lift ticket prices on powder days; It would probably drive some folks to Keystone, but might increase Copper's overall revenue for the day. Just curious if any resort has ever tried that.
 

Philpug

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  • If you have to ask.....
  • It's not the cost of the resorts in some cases, it is the cost to run it.
  • There are some cases, if they gave you the resort for free, you could not afford it.
  • Kirkwood sold to Vail for $18M, Stowe sold for $50M, big difference.
 

LKLA

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I wonder if any place has ever tried dynamic pricing based on daily conditions... i.e. $75 on a typical day, $150 on a powder day.


As I pointed out in my prior post, I think the pricing is fairly dynamic as it is - kudos to the ski industry for that.

My concerns in doing something like what you are proposing would include:

1 - Would this impact season pass sales? People just ski on great days rather than buy a pass that gives them that optionality but forces them to fork out $700-$1,000 up front?

2 - Are conditions too variable and does it take most skiers too long to get to the mountain in order for such degree of dynamic pricing to be realistic?

3 - Will people pay more to ski one great day instead of maybe paying less but do so for three "ok" days like they may have been doing before?

4 - Will it piss people off and push them to other resorts?

5 - It can add a tremendous amount of variability for resorts - even more than they already have, which could be dangerous.

While airlines and other industries do this, movie theaters for example do not. Could they charge $2 - $5 more for movies that have high profile movie stars or that are expected to be tentpoles at the box office or be nominated for an Oscar? Doubtful.
 

Dwight

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I have a little insight on ski areas, none on resorts. You better be a great business person. Love of skiing doesn't pay the bills.
 

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