Freehand sharpening with Razor Tune without bench

[KingGrump]

I don't see bench and vices in your list. You freehand?

I wouldn't call it free hand. I like to think of it as skill and feel. Usually done when I am standing outside the lift corral prior to my first chair.

You can replace 1 to 4 with a Razor Tune. See? Progress still happens.

You think you can. Me, I know it doesn't.

I have a Razor tune. Nice machine. Used it often. Just edged 16 pairs of skis past weekend while the Texan are out there killing themselves. I am very much aware of its strength and limitations.

Most home handyman think if he/she buys the more powerful power tools then they all set to go. All set to tackle "The Project." What they are usually missing is real world knowledge and hands on experience. A little book knowledge is dangerous. Watching HGTV does not constitute as work experience.

It's amazing how much one can learn by doing rather than just thinking. Thinking is important, but it should not constitute as the entire learning process.

 

[oldschoolskier]

@MikeHunt I ski primarily hardpack and ice and only sharpen every 15 to 30 days (not racing just enjoying myself on Race skis). I do check and knock off any burrs that may occur with debris contact in the snow. Beyond that unless I notice a drop off in performance, leave well enough alone.

Second any light wt (which means plastic and light bearings and shafts), will not hold 0.001" accuracy. It is not possible. You start learning machining do you being to realize how difficult that tolerance in cast iron heavy precision guided machines let alone

As I noted earlier, just listening to sound of the grinding indicates a non true shaft/stone so contact is varied with each revolution, the change in tone (rpm) also indicates indicates slowing and speeding up at start and finish this means drag and friction indicating heat, which translates as expansion and contraction of all parts further changing cut depth.

So if your really intent on tuning every day, marker, hand guide and a set of files/diamonds stones is all you need. One or 2 ultra light passes are enough.

I've been tuning in excess of 50 years, a good portion on the site even longer. So take my advise or not, honestly your choice, just don't come back and say you weren't warned.

 

[MikeHunt]

@MikeHunt I ski primarily hardpack and ice and only sharpen every 15 to 30 days (not racing just enjoying myself on Race skis). I do check and knock off any burrs that may occur with debris contact in the snow. Beyond that unless I notice a drop off in performance, leave well enough alone.

Second any light wt (which means plastic and light bearings and shafts), will not hold 0.001" accuracy. It is not possible. You start learning machining do you being to realize how difficult that tolerance in cast iron heavy precision guided machines let alone

As I noted earlier, just listening to sound of the grinding indicates a non true shaft/stone so contact is varied with each revolution, the change in tone (rpm) also indicates indicates slowing and speeding up at start and finish this means drag and friction indicating heat, which translates as expansion and contraction of all parts further changing cut depth.

So if your really intent on tuning every day, marker, hand guide and a set of files/diamonds stones is all you need. One or 2 ultra light passes are enough.

I've been tuning in excess of 50 years, a good portion on the site even longer. So take my advise or not, honestly your choice, just don't come back and say you weren't warned.

Noted. Putting aside the issue of frequency of sharpening, what's your opinion on using my hand as the replacement platform to replace a bench?

That is, I'll be propping up the ski with my hand while the other hand guides the gadget from tip to tail of the ski.

 

[oldschoolskier]

I was just on the RT web site medium grit is good for 1/10 of a thousand accuracy cut. I Call B..L S..T on that statement

I have done those type of tolerances in machining, and none of it was with a free hand power grinder. Requires very controlled conditions.

 

[oldschoolskier]

Noted. Putting aside the issue of frequency of sharpening, what's your opinion on using my hand as the replacement platform to replace a bench?

That is, I'll be propping up the ski with my hand while the other hand guides the gadget from tip to tail of the ski.

Freehand (chair, table, tailgate) supported with marker, guide and file/stone for a light touch up no problem, heavier cuts can result in error if something slips or injury (remember edges are sharp) but I have done it.

How long does it take as long as it takes to run your hand twice on each edge of the ski, and once on each edge to remove any burr (most use a gummi stone, I use a file/stone, experience thing).

 

[anders_nor]

I bring razor-tune when I travel, and mr grippy. I put it on the bindings upside down and get someone to help me hold it stable, works nicely.

I will kill a set of edges in less than a day :| gf's lasts longer, but she prefers them even sharper constantly even on softer snow.

medium wheels = your friend.

I dont even bother with burr removal after medium anymore.

 

[Wade]

.With Razor Tune, it's a soft touch gadget.I just need to guide it along.

I think your resistance to RT for touch ups is you equate the device to a full tune as it's powerful. But it's also portable with a battery and certainly more soft touch than a stone and a guide.

It's soft touch gadget for casuals.

I have no resistance to using a RazorTune. I own and use one to maintain the 15 or so pairs in the rotation for my family. I just think it’s nuts to think it’s necessary to use it on a daily basis in a hotel while on vacation. You probably don’t need to do any maintenance at all if you’re there for, say, a week, and if you do, it’s probably knocking down a burr on an edge which is quicker and easier with a stone.

As I said earlier, you do you though. If it makes you happy and enhances your ski day to use a RazorTune and wax on a daily basis while you’re on vacation, you should definitely do that.

 

[GB_Ski]

We need a tuning guide for OCD folks. A friend who has OCD would tune his skis everyday. After two seasons, he decided to buy two pairs of the same skis and tune them every weekend. He’s much happier now.

 

[James]

Freehanding a stone and a guide is fiddly and slow compared to freehanding a Razor Tune, all else being equal.

Heh. You can screw up an edge when the “fiddly” edge guide slips. It’s usually not that bad. However, power tools add a whole new level of screw up. Even though Razor tune is very low powered, it’s still an abrasive spinning wheel grinding metal.

I think if you go for the RT, at least stabilize the ski on chairs with towels, etc. Somehow. What a guy does with a tool he’s used for hundreds of hours is different than someone with no experience of that tool.

Honestly, I may get a Razor tune just to take to Europe. It ain’t fun skiing a 2.5 kilometer ice sheet on ridiculously dull edges. I either take it to a different shop, or sharpen myself. This year I didn’t bring the tool kit. But that’s a lot of filing to make it better.

I think it’s fine if you want to sharpen everyday on vacation. As spokesman for your skis what concerns me is the description of basic hand tools with “fiddly”. All hand tools are fiddly.

A couple great fiddlers from the past and their tiresome tools:

- Michelangelo
Hammer and chisels on stone? That’s rough. Dude didn’t even have an air hammer to rough things out or electric lights to see. I doubt when he went a little funny in the head and had to live in a cave for a bit, he blamed his fiddling tools.

-Stradivarius (Top fiddler of all time?)
Didn’t just go to the lumber yard to pick up his dimensioned wood to start making musical instruments. No table saws, band saws, chop saws, electric planers, electric sanders, spray guns.
Tapping chisels with a mallet, all those fiddly little planes for shaping wood parts. Incredibly tiresome. Not only that, but the fiddly tools all need to be continually sharpened. Fiddling with the fiddlers.

Looking forward to 3-d printing of the ski of the day! No more fiddling.

 

[jt10000]

My boy's ski coaches said to tune every day. We (another parent in the program and I) did that pretty much every time the boys skied (weekends mainly) and got pretty fast. Diamond stone touch ups plus files every few weeks, all clamped in guides on a bench. There is a learning curve to do it well and doing it quickly. Our results in both regards improved over the winter though we still have more to learn. I haven't done this without a bench but am at the point I'd be OK doing it with the stones in a hotel room if I had too. It would be MUCH slower than on a bench though. I'm tempted to get Mr. Grippy if I feel we need to tune when travelling.

And friend is learning with a Razor Tune and it's interesting, but for as newbs I think we're learning better with hand tools

 

[SlideWright]

Looking forward to 3-d printing of the ski of the day! No more fiddling.

How about just KISS and use 3D printed compact, travel tuners (left) that you can use with skis on your lap or straddled between two chairs for basic edge maintenance? My dad taught me to flat file against a wall or work bench. A couple weeks ago sitting in my sister's office, I planed side walls and tuned edges with the ski bottom wedged in my lap. Light base beveled on two chairs.

A travel stand with vise seems like a good option to consider.

 

[MikeHunt]

Heh. You can screw up an edge when the “fiddly” edge guide slips. It’s usually not that bad. However, power tools add a whole new level of screw up. Even though Razor tune is very low powered, it’s still an abrasive spinning wheel grinding metal.

I think if you go for the RT, at least stabilize the ski on chairs with towels, etc. Somehow. What a guy does with a tool he’s used for hundreds of hours is different than someone with no experience of that tool.

Honestly, I may get a Razor tune just to take to Europe. It ain’t fun skiing a 2.5 kilometer ice sheet on ridiculously dull edges. I either take it to a different shop, or sharpen myself. This year I didn’t bring the tool kit. But that’s a lot of filing to make it better.

I think it’s fine if you want to sharpen everyday on vacation. As spokesman for your skis what concerns me is the description of basic hand tools with “fiddly”. All hand tools are fiddly.

A couple great fiddlers from the past and their tiresome tools:

- Michelangelo
Hammer and chisels on stone? That’s rough. Dude didn’t even have an air hammer to rough things out or electric lights to see. I doubt when he went a little funny in the head and had to live in a cave for a bit, he blamed his fiddling tools.

-Stradivarius (Top fiddler of all time?)
Didn’t just go to the lumber yard to pick up his dimensioned wood to start making musical instruments. No table saws, band saws, chop saws, electric planers, electric sanders, spray guns.
Tapping chisels with a mallet, all those fiddly little planes for shaping wood parts. Incredibly tiresome. Not only that, but the fiddly tools all need to be continually sharpened. Fiddling with the fiddlers.

Looking forward to 3-d printing of the ski of the day! No more fiddling.

As the Razor Tune rests on top of the base, there's no way for wheel to go over the ptex and do some damage.

If one holds it firmly, but gently, pressing on the ptex, gliding from tail to tip or vice versa, there's nowhere for the wheel to go anywhere but away from the ski.

One has to be really inattentive for the wheel to go over the ptex.

And if things go wrong, it's just one thumb click away from turning the device off.

I think one has to pay more attention to the arm holding the ski. But it's all one motion anyway from holding the ski with one hand to gliding the device with the other.

I'll practice next season with a second hand rock ski. Everything's on storage now and there's no way I will practice it on my one ski quiver.

I agree with your towel suggestion. That's what I do, but with a rag, when I rub and brush with liquid spray. I take a rag and wrap the tail with it and use rubber band brake retainer to hold the rag in place. I then rest the ski tail on the corner of a floor and wall and prop up the ski tip with one hand while the other rubs or brushes. Might use the same method with Razor Tune.

 

[MikeHunt]

And friend is learning with a Razor Tune and it's interesting, but for as newbs I think we're learning better with hand tools

I see no big risk as it's a soft touch device. There's no need for applied pressure, as with a human arm running a stone, as the battery/motor provides the power. If anything, one has to apply less pressure and focus more on a gentle touch.

 

[Dave Marshak]

Right, I sharpen endmills and 0.001" per passed doesn't sound anywhere near like that, 0.005" is quieter. That sounds like at best a 0.020 plus cut, out of a light wt tool. Too much vibration in the sounds indicates that.

Again only speaking as a machinist with access to machines that can actually hold those tolerances.

If that were a 0.020 cut, it would be through the edge in 3 or 4 passes. Maybe what you heard was an artifact of the low quality recording, or maybe small bore tools just sound that much different.

I measured the depth of cut from my Swix Evo Pro. https://www.skitalk.com/threads/how-much-material-does-an-edge-grinder-remove.33825/ It came out to ~0.0002 with fine wheel and ~0.00035 with the medium, so I can do 150 to 300 grinds. I'm gonna keep grinding a lot.

OTOH if I had more discipline I could just use my Skivisions adjustable edge sharpener every day. That would keep them just as sharp but it takes too long to bring them back if they get too dull.

dm

 

[BLiP]

As the Razor Tune rests on top of the base, there's no way for wheel to go over the ptex and do some damage.

Its damage to the edges, not the base that I'd be worried about. Slip just a bit and now you have an unintentional variable edge.

 

[Near Nyquist]

Dude

Buy that Razor Tune and use it everyday

I got one and improved my skiing

I just free hand all my friends skis out of the back of my truck for beers

Just ask @KingGrump, he says I suck less than I did before i bought it

Plus I don’t borrow his as often

 

[mdf]

Noted. Putting aside the issue of frequency of sharpening, what's your opinion on using my hand as the replacement platform to replace a bench?

That is, I'll be propping up the ski with my hand while the other hand guides the gadget from tip to tail of the ski.

I think if you go for the RT, at least stabilize the ski on chairs with towels, etc. Somehow.

The basic idea is ok, but no to the free-hand hand. A friend holding the ski on some random solid object should be feasible. Or figure a way to clamp to a found surface. even a chair where you can wedge against the back.

But you should focus on the tool, not the support.

I have used diamond stones with the ski in my lap and scraped wax on a handheld vertical ski. more margin of error with non-motorized tools.

Hotel luggage carts in the hotel garage can be good for waxing, if you can find an outlet.

 

[Atomicman]

It's just a total of 4 passes every morning (one pass per side with a medium wheel). That's too much?

Don't listen to 'em....I always have a fresh edge too with my Razor Tune! So many skier's can't even use their edges! And it is difficult to use any tool on a skinny ski with bindings on it that is not secure in a vise. Hardly the same as using a grinder in some construction setting. It is difficult to stabile the ski and contrary to the experts here , you could really F-up your edge with a slip.

 

[MikeHunt]

Its damage to the edges, not the base that I'd be worried about. Slip just a bit and now you have an unintentional variable edge.

The wheels arrest pressing into the edges too much. The spring adds further dampening.

A guide and stone have none of these.

 

[BLiP]

The wheels arrest pressing into the edges too much. The spring adds further dampening.

A guide and stone have none of these.

Your skis; your choice. It sounds like you've made your decision, so just go with it. You don't need approval from anyone here.