Do ski shops actually get the edge angles right?

[dcoral]

SlideWright wrote in another thread:

I've measured edge angles with a digital angle finder and precision true bar and found a surprising range of variation along the edge, no matter how careful I was.

I came across the same thing when I measured my family's ski edges with the FK SKS edge angle gauge. It varies in different places along the length.

When I watch the videos of fancy tools like SVST Pro Bevel Meter etc. I realize how much room there is for accidental error if the base is not flat etc.

So when I bring my skis for edge sharpening, do the ski shops even match the factory edge angle if I don't pre-specify the angle that I want?

Now I have a feeling that that ski shops might be off by 0.5 degrees sometimes unless they are really precise with their measuring gauge methods.

Is using a Sharpie pen the most accurate method perhaps?

In any case I'm going to be tuning my own edges soon.

 

[Sibhusky]

I stopped trusting ski shops to even do what I wanted after a while. Some shops just have their favorite way of doing skis and run through 25 pairs all at the same settings. Some think you couldn't possibly want what you tell them you want* so they do as they please. I got sick of going back. When I got new boots I asked for release checks on all my bindings while they were doing the adjustment for the new sole length. I told them DO NOT do any tuning (just in case they were feeling like it would be a treat). I know they would have detuned them! Grrrr!

The good thing is once you're doing it yourself you become more aware of what different tunes are like and you actually KNOW what was done to your skis. Plus now you don't have to drop them off and go back to pick them up.

* Especially a problem for us females in our 70's, don't even get me started.

 

[Dave Marshak]

I think with shop tunes mostly you get what everybody else gets. Probably 1 and 2 or 3. Maybe if you can get your skis in with a batch of U18 slalom skis you’ll get 4 on the side.
I know what tools I use to tune and I consistently get a good result but I can’t say for certain what angles I get or how consistent they are. It’s really hard to measure small angles and every machine has some error. Some shop tunes are better than others but I’m never really sure what the difference is. Your best bet is to learn to do it yourself or find a shop that does good work and will correct a poor tune.

dm

 

[CatskillSteve]

Hi I'm new here but not new to our sport. I tune skis on a part-time basis, from high-end customer skis and Racers to our rental Fleet which equates to several thousand. Misconception is that all skis are flat even new ones. That's not the fact. Every brand new ski I buy I run through the grinding machine, a very expensive one. It takes anywhere from 20 to 30 passes in order to get a flat ski and thats per ski! Once that's completed and the structure is applied I hand tune, and only hand tune. Every manufacturer has their tool it doesn't matter, what matters is consistency. My edges are stepped meaning different Edge angles throughout the running edge of the ski. They are cut once by hand with the file and then I begin Polishing And fine-tuning with stones. The key is finding a shop that you can truly trust. The process of Base flattening and Edge flattening takes almost one hour. The hardest of all the processes is establishing the base angle since you cannot cut a 90° Edge to it by hand. Don't worry so much about your side edge that can easily be changed it's the base that determines how your ski will ski. I set the $500,000 machine to a 1/4 degree base angle and complete by hand. I solely use svst, there are no moving parts that can go out of adjustment with their tools. Depending upon which ski I'm tuning the range can go from 4° down to .75° along the running edge in steps. And no, my 72 mm Carvers are not set up the same way my 100mm bents are. Now to make your head explode, you can drastically change how that ski skis from brand new first run to post tuning so be forewarned!

 

[Tom K.]

I stopped trusting ski shops to even do what I wanted after a while.

Yup. Generally, my instructions are "grind the bases flat, then STOP". I can do the rest. And still kind of enjoy it (unlike hot waxing, which I've come to loathe).

I did get into a time crunch, a got a recommendation for Jeff Johns up at the mountain, and I have to say that he put a magnificent tune on my venerable Titans.

 

[scott43]

I would only add that 99% of folks who put their skis through a shop couldn't tell the difference anyway and really don't care. I would suggest a rapport with a shop could help you get what you want.

 

[SlideWright]

I would only add that 99% of folks who put their skis through a shop couldn't tell the difference anyway and really don't care. I would suggest a rapport with a shop could help you get what you want.

SlideWright wrote in another thread:

I've measured edge angles with a digital angle finder and precision true bar and found a surprising range of variation along the edge, no matter how careful I was.

I also said: "For rec skiers, you can pretend all day long that paying top dollar for absolute precision will matter to how well you and your gear perform on the snow." This was in regard to the tool precision & cost. There are several other larger variables at play and we do adapt naturally. Just take the snow surface for one.

The point being we are not robots, using machinist grade tools and have the skills to tune the skis to machinist grade tolerances....especially by hand. Expectations of perfection are unrealistic and you will not feel the subtle differences and variations along the ski edges and bases that will occur no matter how and by whom the skis are tuned.

A lot of this is over thinking and sweating the small stuff that does not really matter. Strive for consistency & excellence, not perfection or you will drive yourself nuts, spend way too much time for zero ROI. You will never get off the bench just go ski and have fun.

Do you think you could truly measure the differences of the following edge geometry along an edge on a bench, much less tell the difference while you are skiing? I know I can't and I know the differences will not affect my day.

 

[scott43]

And at what cost? Will people pay $200 for a proper tune?

 

[Philpug]

Will people pay $200 for a proper tune?

I am not sure where you got $200 from but most shops that have a $500K Jupiter or similar machine are not charging much more than half or even half of that. Maybe if someone is getting into top end race waxes/overlays are we even getting near that.

Like anything else, there are good shops and not good shops for tuning (and boot fitting and and and). And like on other areas, the shop is only as good as your last tune. We used to deal with a shop that was excellent but now will not even let them near our skis. If you want to find a good shop, ask racers or better XC skiers no one os more finicky about their skis than cross country skiers.

 

[CatskillSteve]

Scott is right. Keep them at factory specs, wax them, do not use your ski to press the binding to release your other ski. Avoid rocks and do not allow your kids to walk through the parking lot with them on! If you feel you don't grip on ice then it's time to get them sharpened. For you folks out west you don't have to worry about such icy conditions or heavy man-made snow that is super aggressive and burns your bases. Invest in a $10 gummy Stone to keep them polished.

 

[scott43]

I am not sure where you got $200 from but most shops that have a $500K Jupiter or similar machine are not charging much more than half or even half of that. Maybe if someone is getting into top end race waxes/overlays are we even getting near that.

Like anything else, there are good shops and not good shops for tuning (and boot fitting and and and). And like on other areas, the shop is only as good as your last tune. We used to deal with a shop that was excellent but now will not even let them near our skis. If you want to find a good shop, ask racers or better XC skiers no one os more finicky about their skis than cross country skiers.

My intent there is, to do it properly may take a significant amount of time. Will people pay more for that level of effort? I'm not saying places are ripping people off, more like labour costs money and I'm not sure people will pay.

 

[CatskillSteve]

If you want an exceptional job from your tuner either tip him or bring him beer

 

[cantunamunch]

My intent there is, to do it properly may take a significant amount of time. Will people pay more for that level of effort? I'm not saying places are ripping people off, more like labour costs money and I'm not sure people will pay.

Thats how I understood it - the level of tune people talk about here and on other forums as being ideal would be over $200. Way over.

And that's even without going down the conceptual rabbit hole of what base flatness is going to be referenced to. There's no datum plane on any ski that is actually *defined* to be flat, not the base, not the edges and certainly not the topsheets.

 

[crgildart]

In shops' (and everyones' defense) setting and maintaining base and side edge angles seems like it's very prone to error and an imperfect science. Ski bases are never "flat", sidewalls are beveled incinsistantly, the goal posts are always moving due to the base concave/convex, sidecut, sidewall bevel, etc.. It's going to be all over the place unless you bolt them down perfectly flat and use a laser guided surgical precision tool all the way around. Ya, just go with the guide best you can but it's going to be variable no matter how hard you try, same goes for shops. A wintersteiger is the closest thing to bolted down flat but there will be play in play there too most likely.

 

[Philpug]

If you want an exceptional job from your tuner either tip him or bring him beer

or cookies, coffees, a case of soda water ... beer is just one commodity for tipping and some shops do frown on it and not all tuners are beer drinkers. But definately something that can be shared, it goes a long way to keeping everyone happy because it's not just the person running the machine or waxing the skis but the grom that is logging the skis in, the kid at the register and the manager that has to keep the peace.

 

[crgildart]

There are no "perfect" tunes but there are certainly plenty of terrible tunes.. The latter should be avoided at all costs.

 

[Philpug]

There are no "perfect" tunes but there are certainly plenty of terrible tunes..

I will disagree, I have had many perfect tunes.

 

[BLiP]

If the tune is too good, who am I going to blame for my poor skiing? Certainly not taking the blame myself.

 

[cantunamunch]

In shops' (and everyones' defense) setting and maintaining base and side edge angles seems like it's very prone to error and an imperfect science. Ski bases are never "flat", sidewalls are beveled incinsistantly, the goal posts are always moving due to the base concave/convex, sidecut, sidewall bevel, etc.. It's going to be all over the place unless you bolt them down perfectly flat and use a laser guided surgical precision tool all the way around. Ya, just go with the guide best you can but it's going to be variable no matter how hard you try, same goes for shops. A wintersteiger is the closest thing to bolted down flat but there will be play in play there too most likely.

The problem is that referencing to the machine is external to the ski. So the operator gets all the blame, no matter how horrific the ski comes out of the mould. Warp? Misaligned edges? Cupping? Blame the "chimp" at the tuning machine.

 

[Tricia]

If the tune is too good, who am I going to blame for my poor skiing? Certainly not taking the blame myself.

We often say, we take away the excuses.