Dirty Heel Pusher - what does it mean?

[Tricia]

Hm. Okay, yeah. I took your statement to mean that anything other than carving is "less than," and that I disagree with. I do agree that heel pushing is suboptimal (as I said, there are particular snow conditions in which it's a real problem).

I think you and he are in a position to agree to disagree.
I think anything that isn't a clean carve is inefficient, which means you're using more energy than necessary and more torque on hips, knees, ankles, etc.
But some terrain requires an inefficient approach to be skied efficiently.
Skiing steeps, chutes, moguls, etc *can* require something different than clean efficient moves.

 

[slowrider]

I'v learned life is easier to agree than disagree with the opposite sex. Lol. But yes you are correct Tricia.

 

[Scruffy]

I think you and he are in a position to agree to disagree.
I think anything that isn't a clean carve is inefficient, which means you're using more energy than necessary and more torque on hips, knees, ankles, etc.
But some terrain requires an inefficient approach to be skied efficiently.
Skiing steeps, chutes, moguls, etc *can* require something different than clean efficient moves.

I like what you said here. I'll just expand on your last sentence. The optimal word there is "can", as you so aptly starred. Hop turns are woefully inefficient for skiing on piste in general, but must be done cleanly and as efficiently as possible when skiing a dicey 50 degree chute not much wider than your ski length--your life may depend on it. Extreme example, I know.

 

[Scruffy]

For those resisting the force, the clean carve does not have to be racer GS carving arc to arc every turn every where on the mountain. There are elements in a carved turn in steeps, chutes ( usually ), moguls, powder, crud, junk snow, etc.. I think I saw a video of Bob Barns demonstrating carved turns on a steep slope. I didn't bookmark it and I don't know how to find it, so apologies Bob, if I'm miss quoting you. Anyway, the video showed a brushed top half of the turn and a carved bottom half of the turn. The brushed top half was to get the skis around quickly into the fall line, since the steepness of the terrain would lead to too much speed gain in pure arch to arc carves.
This is just on example. Parts of a carved turn come to play everywhere. Heel pushing, not so much.

 

[Living Proof]

I push my tails from time to time and am not afraid to admit it.

Ha! Not in any set of your tracks that I ever tried to follow,

Personally, I think the term is a nasty-cute terminology used by judgmental people to describe skiing style they look down on. Does not say anything specific. There are a ton of similar terms used in other sports that are equally meaningless.

 

[AmyPJ]

Ha! Not in any set of your tracks that I ever tried to follow,

Personally, I think the term is a nasty-cute terminology used by judgmental people to describe skiing style they look down on. Does not say anything specific. There are a ton of similar terms used in other sports that are equally meaningless.

I think it's one of the big reasons I struggle on steeps! Particularly coupled with pushing only the outside ski.

 

[LiquidFeet]

I categorize two types of heel pushers:
1. Leg locked heel pushers, &
2. Those who push their outside ski to a stiff downhill leg.
The former leg locked type, often consider themselves experts & indeed are able to ski most conditions without much difficulty using this misguided technique.
The second type are usually at the intermediate level and ski very defensively. They usually complete the turn with their weight back and inside.
Both skiers along with other detriments, lack the ability to tip the skis on edge early in the turn & usually only achieve any significant edge angle at turn completion.

@4ster, can you elaborate on the first type of heel pusher above? I understand the braced outside leg people who lean inside and are aft; they are indeed lower intermediates whose skiing limits the terrain and conditions they can ski. I know another type of heel pushing, but "leg locked" doesn't seem to describe it.

Can you offer more words or even video for your first type?

.

 

[4ster]

@4ster, can you elaborate on the first type of heel pusher above? I understand the braced outside leg people who lean inside and are aft; they are indeed lower intermediates whose skiing limits the terrain and conditions they can ski. I know another type of heel pushing, but "leg locked" doesn't seem to describe it.

Can you offer more words or even video for your first type?

.

This guy is quite proficient but a decent example.

The Leg Locked Heel Pusher is usually typified by a slightly aft stance & as the name implies keeping the feet close together is the prime directive. The release into the new turn is accomplished with a lateral tip of the hip to the outside followed by the pushing of both skis away from the skier till they finally get on edge.

 

[LiquidFeet]

Thanks. "Leg-locked" means the two legs are locked together and almost the same length, in a narrow stance, slightly aft, and pushing both heels out to brake with each turn. Got it.

 

[4ster]

Thanks. "Leg-locked" means the two legs are locked together and almost the same length, in a narrow stance, slightly aft, and pushing both heels out to brake with each turn. Got it.

Yes, they lack independent leg action or the ability to rotate the legs from hip sockets. It is an old “style” but still a lot of it out there. These skiers were the ones who had the most difficult time transitioning to shaped skis. The ingrained movement patterns take a real commitment to overcome.

 

[AmyPJ]

Yes, very old school indeed! I only push ONE heel

 

[TPJ]

I actually first heard it from Spencer (is he on the board at all?). He almost sounded proud of it in a wry way.

It works until it doesn't. As I said - it does not work in breakable crust. It does not work on sastrugi. It is a disaster in upside down snow.



Ehh. No. Especially not if by "pushing" you mean specifically heel pushing. My instructor demonstrated it quite clearly for me last weekend - the difference between his smearing (pivoting at the center of the foot) vs my smearing (pivoting closer to the tail). One is much different than the other. This is something that wasn't obvious to me until he explained it. In retrospect, obvious.

Take another look at what you are doing verses what you are saying. I haven't seen you skiing, but I am pretty sure you are pivoting around the tips to push the tails. Again, I haven't seen you ski in this case, but I would guess the underlying cause would be for/aft balance. I did see the MA video you posted earlier this year. I didn't comment and don't have specific feedback for you now. It seemed like some of the comments you got bummed you out and you requested people to stop. What I can remember is that the skiing was controlled and competent, but lacked dynamic movement and was maybe a little stiff and "contrived". I see a lot of skiers get into this type of thing when they work very hard to improve. It sounds like you are working with a skilled instructor who you click with. Relax and don't forget to breathe... Have fun!

 

[Monique]

Take another look at what you are doing verses what you are saying. I haven't seen you skiing, but I am pretty sure you are pivoting around the tips to push the tails. Again, I haven't seen you ski in this case, but I would guess the underlying cause would be for/aft balance. I did see the MA video you posted earlier this year. I didn't comment and don't have specific feedback for you now. It seemed like some of the comments you got bummed you out and you requested people to stop. What I can remember is that the skiing was controlled and competent, but lacked dynamic movement and was maybe a little stiff and "contrived". I see a lot of skiers get into this type of thing when they work very hard to improve. It sounds like you are working with a skilled instructor who you click with. Relax and don't forget to breathe... Have fun!

Thanks

This weekend I had a pretty big breakthrough with carving, long leg/short leg, and angulation. I think that "dynamic" thing is going to improve pretty quickly! Pro (no, student) tip: I think all that "get your hands forward" contributed to my static skiing. My breakthrough drill yesterday was to reach for the outside heel on the turn, then work on reaching for the outside heel sooner and sooner in the turn. It was ... amazing. I bent my knees and found tons more angulation than I thought my body could even do. I said, "Hey, you're tricking us into angulating!" He just smiled. He also said that all the women in the class went from pointing their hips to the sides of the run, to having a much more appropriate stance.

Sometimes breakthroughs are just a matter of whatever drill happens at the right time for the student to progress, but I really think that drill woke me up.

(If anyone is thinking of doing this drill, the key point is to EXTEND between the reach, not just stay crouched. My poor quads!)

 

[Wolfski]

Didn't this used to be called a Stem Christie?

 

[squill]

Didn't this used to be called a Stem Christie?

When I was a tweener we called it the "Swish Boom," as in you swish your hips to make your feet go boom into the next turn.

 

[Josh Matta]

I think you and he are in a position to agree to disagree.
I think anything that isn't a clean carve is inefficient, which means you're using more energy than necessary and more torque on hips, knees, ankles, etc.
But some terrain requires an inefficient approach to be skied efficiently.
Skiing steeps, chutes, moguls, etc *can* require something different than clean efficient moves.

I get way more tired carving turns at a high edge angle than I do make round slippery instructor turns all day. My core get exhausted after maybe 5 top to bottom runs of edge locked carves, so exhausted I quite often go find some moguls for a rest.

The thing is carving turn on high edge angle isn't the end all to be all of skiing....its a tool that any expert skier should be in possession of and be able to use all or parts of it at will, but round turns can be done basically in any condition, on steepness of slope with the exception being you fall you die terrain....and even then knowing how to make round turns will be helpful.

I think Z turns and heel pushing are basically something that shouldn't be done ever that guys video titles "Ski style" made me throw up in my mouth a little.....round turns from soft edge angle as carved as possible given the speed, slope and conditions to full on edge locked arcs and every variation in between is what everyone should strive for, if they want to use the skis as tool and not as a blunt instrument, it will also lead to being able to ski more conditions and less pain on our bodies.

 

[Johnny V.]

I get way more tired carving turns at a high edge angle than I do make round slippery instructor turns all day

The thing is carving turn on high edge angle isn't the end all to be all of skiing....its a tool that any expert skier should be in possession of and be able to use all or parts of it at will, but round turns can be done basically in any condition, on steepness of slope

How true! I spent a good portion of my day on Sunday skiing greens and blues working on high angle carving and bending the ski to tighten the turn radius. It's a LOT more tiring than "park and ride" railroad tracks. Unless you want to be "that guy" and blast by slower skiers with no regard to their safety, at some point you need to do Josh's "round slippery turns" to dial it back a little or a lot.

 

[Tricia]

I think you and he are in a position to agree to disagree.
I think anything that isn't a clean carve is inefficient, which means you're using more energy than necessary and more torque on hips, knees, ankles, etc.
But some terrain requires an inefficient approach to be skied efficiently.
Skiing steeps, chutes, moguls, etc *can* require something different than clean efficient moves.

I like what you said here. I'll just expand on your last sentence. The optimal word there is "can", as you so aptly starred. Hop turns are woefully inefficient for skiing on piste in general, but must be done cleanly and as efficiently as possible when skiing a dicey 50 degree chute not much wider than your ski length--your life may depend on it. Extreme example, I know.

And, to be humbly honest, I'm not great at hop turns. I really need to get on that.

I get way more tired carving turns at a high edge angle than I do make round slippery instructor turns all day.

I never said high edge angle. I said clean carve. There is a difference.

But if your core gets tired, then maybe you need to work on your core.

 

[Dakine]

The whole point of the clean carved race turn is to not slow as you turn.
That's fine in a course but in the real world braking is required.
That takes some skidding and you can do that early or late depending on the situation.
Or, if it is really steep, edge to edge hacking is the only way to control speed.
Brush up on your Austrian short swing.
Not much is harder than making high speed carved turns where you are pulling 2-3 times gravity at each apex.
That is like doing squats with heavy weight.

 

[Monique]

The whole point of the clean carved race turn is to not slow as you turn.
That's fine in a course but in the real world braking is required.
That takes some skidding and you can do that early or late depending on the situation.
Or, if it is really steep, edge to edge hacking is the only way to control speed.
Brush up on your Austrian short swing.
Not much is harder than making high speed carved turns where you are pulling 2-3 times gravity at each apex.
That is like doing squats with heavy weight.

And all of that being said, braking/skidding does not require the heel push. The heel push is a "modification" those of us poseurs tend to add.