Boot Canting and Balancing

[bud heishman]

I remember that day! I told Tricia it may take a few runs to get used to her new found edges and to be patient. Then I happened to be riding up the lift while she was skiing down her first run of the day and she had a big smile on her face! Said it felt great the first turns. That was back when Phil and Tricia had that sparkle in their eyes for one another and the rest is history!

 

[Uncle-A]

I'd say this is pretty accurate.
I know most of my friends and family started that way as did I. I was dating a guy who skied and he said I needed to learn. He was an awful instructor(re: never let your boyfriend teach you how to ski) But I fell in love with it. FF>>> 32 years - Not only have I learned how to ski better (always learning) but I've learned a lot about my alignment and LLD, but most of all....I've learned how to scrape out a living as a ski bum.

I taught my girlfriend to ski and now she is my wife and we honeymooned in Aspen. Although she gave up skiing a while back because she no longer like's the cold.

 

[Philpug]

I taught my girlfriend to ski and now she is my wife and we honeymooned in Aspen. Although she gave up skiing a while back because she no longer like's the cold.

And you believed her? If you are like me or most guys, she probably told you for years that she didn't like it..it just took you that long to actually hear her

 

[Uncle-A]

And you believed her? If you are like me or most guys, she probably told you for years that she didn't like it..it just took you that long to actually hear her

I guess it's a guy thing.

 

[Tony Warren]

My deal was to hire someone, anyone to teach my girlfriend how to ski.

 

[Tricia]

My current guy is pretty intuitive. He knows me well enough to schedule our wedding day on a powder day.
The wedding ceremony lasted less than 15 minutes and we all headed out to ski powder.

 

[bud heishman]

That was a good day Tater!

 

[Tricia]

You can say that again!

 

[Eric Ward]

Hey gang since we are talking about a subject close to my heart. I would like to throw some wood on this fire. Most simply put there are two things that need to happen no matter how you do it.

First, get the ski flat on the snow. (external canting)
This is where cuff alignment and external canting in any form, grinding, cantology, or any boot shell changes made come in to get the ski flat relative to shape of the leg. This is what 99% of the conversation revolves around.

Second, get the foot flat inside the boot (internal canting) If this gets 1% of the conversation I would be surprised
This is the grey area around foot beds, and what they can or "cant" do that needs to be talked about. The opportunity to get the foot flat for those that need it, is a huge opportunity that IMHO the industry has glossed over and has paid little to no attention to. The problem is that people think that just a foot bed fixes the problem. Not exactly, arch support does little to solve the problem for someone that suffers with 3 to 6 degrees of it. which by the way represents about 80% of humans Being the guy that is trying to bring the conversation into the light, 3 pages of posts on the subject and almost nothing was mentioned about this subject is usual.

The key to this pronation problem is that its different for everyone. Different for each foot. The interesting thing is that most people suffer from this condition to one degree or another. Most highly qualified ski pros, and elite racers don't. In testing I have done, 70% or ski pros fall into the less than 2.5 degrees of pronation pool. 99% or former and current PSIA demo team members have exactly 1.5 degrees, which is exactly what you need. They are born to ski. So when you suggest that there is a problem with excessive pronation it often gets thrown into the, its not a problem pool by the decision makers who don't actually need this sort of help. They could never imagine a world of 3,4, 5 or even 6 degrees of pronation inside a boot. Well the truth is it may be the difference for most beginners that are struggling to learn. In Aspen we use internal canting for the terminal beginners. It has made a huge difference in our success rates with these folks.

Hope this inspires fresh conversation
Mosh

 

[Tony Warren]

Hey gang since we are talking about a subject close to my heart. I would like to throw some wood on this fire. Most simply put there are two things that need to happen no matter how you do it.

First, get the ski flat on the snow. (external canting)
This is where cuff alignment and external canting in any form, grinding, cantology, or any boot shell changes made come in to get the ski flat relative to shape of the leg. This is what 99% of the conversation revolves around.

Second, get the foot flat inside the boot (internal canting) If this gets 1% of the conversation I would be surprised
This is the grey area around foot beds, and what they can or "cant" do that needs to be talked about. The opportunity to get the foot flat for those that need it, is a huge opportunity that IMHO the industry has glossed over and has paid little to no attention to. The problem is that people think that just a foot bed fixes the problem. Not exactly, arch support does little to solve the problem for someone that suffers with 3 to 6 degrees of it. which by the way represents about 80% of humans Being the guy that is trying to bring the conversation into the light, 3 pages of posts on the subject and almost nothing was mentioned about this subject is usual.

The key to this pronation problem is that its different for everyone. Different for each foot. The interesting thing is that most people suffer from this condition to one degree or another. Most highly qualified ski pros, and elite racers don't. In testing I have done, 70% or ski pros fall into the less than 2.5 degrees of pronation pool. 99% or former and current PSIA demo team members have exactly 1.5 degrees, which is exactly what you need. They are born to ski. So when you suggest that there is a problem with excessive pronation it often gets thrown into the, its not a problem pool by the decision makers who don't actually need this sort of help. They could never imagine a world of 3,4, 5 or even 6 degrees of pronation inside a boot. Well the truth is it may be the difference for most beginners that are struggling to learn. In Aspen we use internal canting for the terminal beginners. It has made a huge difference in our success rates with these folks.

Hope this inspires fresh conversation
Mosh

Could not agree with you more. Foot position inside the boot including footbeds where needed are all part of the same goal.

 

[bud heishman]

Hey Eric! Glad you joined us here and look forward to some great conversations with you. I am wondering in what order do you address the three parameters you listed? It sounds like you look at and adjust external boot sole canting and cuff alignment before you deal with internal underfoot adjustments? Is this your normal methodology?

I agree, as likely do most respected boot fitters, that the footbed is a key component, but how well it is made and functions is key to a good result. In fact I personally identify, assess and adjust 4 parameters on the frontal plane beginning with the foot and inside the boot insole between the foot and zeppa. My goal, as I believe is yours also, is to place the foot in a soft neutral position so as to achieve either a vertical heel cord, sub talor neutral, or in your case a quiet one footed balance. My second parameter I assess is the cuff alignment, then external sole canting. The last parameter affecting this plane is the ski base bevel, although if the other three are on the money, minimal base bevel is needed 1/2 to 1 being pretty standard.

You suggested that most or more are suffer from pronation than supination, which I certainly agree. As you know I have used your system over the years for specific situations with outstanding success. I find those who benefit the most are super pronated, no arch, and a very rigid arch. These skiers respond very well to the full length internal cant wedge.

Hope the family is well and growing fast! Hope to see you on the snow one day again!

regards,
bud

 

[fatbob]

Surely canting is something that if you need it you need it but people who need it shouldn't fall into the trap of concluding everyone needs it. Marginal improvement maybe for everyone, major/essential improvement for some.

 

[Tony Warren]

Hey Eric! Glad you joined us here and look forward to some great conversations with you. I am wondering in what order do you address the three parameters you listed? It sounds like you look at and adjust external boot sole canting and cuff alignment before you deal with internal underfoot adjustments? Is this your normal methodology?

I agree, as likely do most respected boot fitters, that the footbed is a key component, but how well it is made and functions is key to a good result. In fact I personally identify, assess and adjust 4 parameters on the frontal plane beginning with the foot and inside the boot insole between the foot and zeppa. My goal, as I believe is yours also, is to place the foot in a soft neutral position so as to achieve either a vertical heel cord, sub talor neutral, or in your case a quiet one footed balance. My second parameter I assess is the cuff alignment, then external sole canting. The last parameter affecting this plane is the ski base bevel, although if the other three are on the money, minimal base bevel is needed 1/2 to 1 being pretty standard.

You suggested that most or more are suffer from pronation than supination, which I certainly agree. As you know I have used your system over the years for specific situations with outstanding success. I find those who benefit the most are super pronated, no arch, and a very rigid arch. These skiers respond very well to the full length internal cant wedge.

Hope the family is well and growing fast! Hope to see you on the snow one day again!

regards,
bud

My personal experience has been different with regard to footbeds. Too many fitters tried to tell me that they could solve all known problems (including that nasty business in Iraq a few years ago) from inside my boots. They made all sorts of different footbeds. I even had a set made by an orthopedic surgeon friend who specialized in foot issues.

They were all wrong and I ended up having to sort out my own cants under bindings of my quiver.

Now, I have a pair of Dalbello DRS 130 race boots. They have no real cuff adjustment. So I have Intuition liners and the standard issue footbeds that came with the boots. But my soles are canted a lot and the soles are also flat. These boots are the bomb.

So, while I am certain that many people benefit from footbeds in my experience they just haven't worked as promised.

 

[Philpug]

My personal experience has been different with regard to footbeds. Too many fitters tried to tell me that they could solve all known problems (including that nasty business in Iraq a few years ago) from inside my boots. They made all sorts of different footbeds. I even had a set made by an orthopedic surgeon friend who specialized in foot issues.

They were all wrong and I ended up having to sort out my own cants under bindings of my quiver.

Now, I have a pair of Dalbello DRS 130 race boots. They have no real cuff adjustment. So I have Intuition liners and the standard issue footbeds that came with the boots. But my soles are canted a lot and the soles are also flat. These boots are the bomb.

So, while I am certain that many people benefit from footbeds in my experience they just haven't worked as promised.

Well for some people, if all they have is a hammer, everything looks like a nail.

 

[Tony Warren]

Surely canting is something that if you need it you need it but people who need it shouldn't fall into the trap of concluding everyone needs it. Marginal improvement maybe for everyone, major/essential improvement for some.

I would say that it should be the default position. Far more people need it than do not.

 

[bud heishman]

I have been assessing alignment needs of my customers for over 25 years now so I believe I am speaking from experience when I say, after assessing thousands of skier's alignment needs it is safe to say less than 10% of skiers need zero adjustments for optimum alignment. Sure we can ski in boots right out of the box and our bodies will skillfully adapt and compensate to balance on what we have! The question is if you are happy compensating and compromising then by all means carry on. If you are concerned about protecting your joints and optimizing your skiing ability then finding out exactly where you are at and optimizing your set up is a great idea and the quickest way to affect a positive change in your skiing performance. But what do I know...


Not everyone needs a custom footbed! There are some great products that work for a percentage of skiers without the need for a full customized insole. I use some trim to fit/moldable products in my shop from "Boot Doc" that work for many customers at a much lower price than full customs. These footbeds come in three different arch sizes to match a general group of feet then are heat moldable to give a more custom shape and costing under $100. If you don't have any special custom posting needs I don't recommend a full custom.

Footbeds are an important part of the big picture. They are not a fix all but an integral part of a good package.

 

[Eric Ward]

To give some numerical significance to the conversation In more than 16 years of testing literally many thousands of people from all walks of life The amount of pronation that I measure shakes out in the following way. The bell curve goes from 0-6 degrees. From 0-2.5 degrees the functional zone. Only 10% of people off the street will fall into this category. From 2.5-4.5 degrees. 55% of people will fall into this moderate category. From 4.5-6 accounts for 35% of people are severely pronated. So aprox 90% of people fall into the moderate to severe pronation zone. So The ski business has this small problem of 80% of beginners never ski after their first try. Well if 90% of people simply cant balance functionally and skiing is basically balance its no surprise we have such a huge fall out rate.

As to the supinated, well this is one thing we have been a bit off base about largely. In dynamic evaluations what we see is both pronation and supination working together its not a static monolithic understanding of lets say building a house. If a house is leaning over, you wedge it up straight. The body does not work like that. So to keep it simple. Pronation and supination work together, in equal and opposite amounts to create and sustain balance. The more you pronate the more you will supinate. Its more like breathing, the deeper you breathe in, the longer you will breathe out. So to look at these to movements as things that exist in isolation of the other, does not do justice to their relationship to each other. That said everyone asks that same question. So its a mater of looking deeper into the issue. There is a book that needs to be written on this subject of feet by itself.

Simply put the foot is the key to skiing and so little is really understood about them. The entire conversation seems to revolve around arch supports. Its the beginning and end of the conversation. Well the Romans taught us a lot, and one of the best lessons they passed down was that an arch is defined as a self supporting structure. So if it is self supporting, why would it need to be supported? The term "arch support" itself is redundant. This is why the orthotic, and alignment conversation is so often hit and miss. In my approach its get the ski flat and then get the foot flat. thats it. The fore aft is also key but its not often enough that I mess with it. Usually when there is noticeable flexibility issues.

So in short, its quite easy. We know where good skiers are the target is near 1.5 degrees of pronation. If you are not there from as an accident of birth you will have to work to make up for it. Oh and boot grinding does not fix this problem its a seporate problem from the cuff tibial alignment.

Yep still living the dream all good...

 

[Tony Warren]

The above comments of Bud and MOSH are revealing to me. I think the number 10% is probably too high, but you guys have the experience.

MOSH makes my point that beginners quit because no one cares enough to inform them about how important having their own, properly set-up boots is.

Those of us who are fortunate enough to either be those lucky few who just step into boots and work them, or (like me) have always worked hard on getting boots 'right' know that we can make any ski do something worthwhile. But without the right boots, the transition from beginner to advanced is pure torture. I really find this annoying when I see so many skiers who try so hard for years and never get all that good because they will not invest in well set-up boots. This is a disservice to them and a limiting factor for the growth of the industry.

As the OP I can say that this thread has been very enlightening to me and I appreciate the posts of so many experts on the topic. Thank you all for that.

 

[Philpug]

The above comments of Bud and MOSH are revealing to me. I think the number 10% is probably too high, but you guys have the experience.

MOSH makes my point that beginners quit because no one cares enough to inform them about how important having their own, properly set-up boots is.

Those of us who are fortunate enough to either be those lucky few who just step into boots and work them, or (like me) have always worked hard on getting boots 'right' know that we can make any ski do something worthwhile. But without the right boots, the transition from beginner to advanced is pure torture. I really find this annoying when I see so many skiers who try so hard for years and never get all that good because they will not invest in well set-up boots. This is a disservice to them and a limiting factor for the growth of the industry.

As the OP I can say that this thread has been very enlightening to me and I appreciate the posts of so many experts on the topic. Thank you all for that.

That is a whole talk show in itself.

 

[SBrown]

Has anyone ever tried to design a self-leveling boot, so to speak? This shouldn't be so difficult.