Why does my Nylon brush not seem to do much?

[François Pugh]

Okay, I'm having trouble understanding this thread's existance; it's not that complicated.

If your ski base has no structure, you need a base grind.
If your ski base has structure, your scraper, no matter how sharp, will not get the wax out from between the structure ridges. It's easy to see if your brush is getting the wax out of there. If it isn't, you need a new brush.

 

[PisteOff]

I use the brass brush post wax on occasion. On the occasions I have tramp wax spots on the skis after scraping and I usually find that I have the most tramp wax post scraping at the tips and the tails. The brass brush pulls it out quick and it comes up in little balls. As soon as that clears I move to the softer brushes. I have brass/nylon/horse hair. Scotch Brite pads work real well too. I use Scotch Brite pre wax. Scotch Brite real quick then I apply base cleaner and towel and leave to dry. Note: base cleaning is done after edge work. I use cork and scotch brite when I cold wax at the lodge. Crayon on, cork in, scotch brite to a sheen.

 

[focker]

Okay, I'm having trouble understanding this thread's existance; it's not that complicated.

If your ski base has no structure, you need a base grind.
If your ski base has structure, your scraper, no matter how sharp, will not get the wax out from between the structure ridges. It's easy to see if your brush is getting the wax out of there. If it isn't, you need a new brush.

 

[Polo]

Sometimes there actually is only one way. But we have been through this somewhere else already, right? I made in my career of serviceman on WC several 10.000 tests. Timed, measured and able to really compare results between each test. You, as you wrote yourself that time, feel things and never did any serious testing. Not waxing, not skis, not structure and not the way how certain workflow influences end result. And end result is only one... ski speed. So when it comes to this, I take timed test over "feel" every single time. I don't feel like arguing, especially not here, but lets make things like they are. Waxing is for better performance. Even in recreational skiing. And when it comes to performance, service guys on World cup, especially in xc skiing, made things to perfection. So even though in recreational skiing, you don't need performance of World cup skis, you still can make things better if you already bother with waxing. So if all tests show one procedure is by far better then other, then yes, sometimes there's one way only. I don't mind if you use steel brush after scraping. It's fine with me, but let's try not to convince everyone else this is right way. As it's not, and it has been tested over and over again and never had better end result.

Graham Lonetto is a pretty accomplished former WC tech and he uses a steel brush as his first brush post scrape. I know others that regularly do as well. I always use a steel brush as my first brush post scrape. The biggest concern with using a steel brush is when they are brand new and the tips are sharp, which is why I always break them in on some sandpaper first. I've been using the same Holmenkol steel oval brush as my first brush post scraping for the last four years. The bristles are long so they aren't particularly stiff and they wire diameter is small enough that it gets down in the structure.

What is your concern with using steel, or any metal brush for that matter, post scraping?

 

[cantunamunch]

@focker don't forget that the harder you push down on the brush the quicker it wears.

Oh and I had a thread somewhere on chucking a 6x9 sheet of white Fibertex into a power sander . if you already have a sander for woodwork it can be very time effective. Grey Fibertex for pre wax cleaning.

 

[Swiss Toni]

Stefan Berthold, Aksel Svindal’s ski tech uses bronze brushes to brush the wax out of the structure, unfortunately his website is only in German http://www.waxmeister.com/racing-bearbeiten-des-belages-und-saettigen-mit-wax-2/ Having prepared the skis for over 50 world cup race winners he’s likely to have some idea about how to prepare a fast ski. If you scroll down to the comment beginning “Hallo Walter” he gives some pretty detailed advice on how to prepare skis for a junior racer.

From Race Place:
Waxing is easy and you need only a few basic supplies.

1. CLEAN SKI BASE
   Clean your ski base by scraping with a acrylic wax scraper to remove old wax and dirt from the surface. (Use base cleaners sparingly as they tend to dry out and deteriorate the base material.) Use a brass or bronze base brush aggressively from tip to tail to further clean the base and remove oxidized base material. Follow with a fiber pad to remove any base burn “fuzz" caused by abrasive snow.

As we all know the best ski bases are made of UHMW-PE, the raw material is manufacture by the Celanese Corp. and the grade used is GUR 4170. In one of their brochures http://www.hipolymers.com.ar/pdfs/gur/diseno/GUR (PE-UHMW).pdf it is stated on page 17 that “If GUR is modified with 2.5 % w/w carbon black, for example, then no oxidative degradation is evident even after 5 years’ outdoor weathering.”

According to the their document ‘Resistance to chemicals and other media’ https://www.ecomexperu.com/UHMWPE_Chemical-Resistance.pdf you could soak a UHMW-PE ski base in any of the solvents commonly used to remove wax for 60 days with very little effect.

Does anybody ever read the technical information produced by the manufactures?

 

[Jacques]

I still contend that nylon is the last brush, stiff horse hair 1st brush after scraping!

I'm gonna' start trying that for final then! Ye Haw!

 

[Jacques]

Sometimes there actually is only one way. But we have been through this somewhere else already, right? I made in my career of serviceman on WC several 10.000 tests. Timed, measured and able to really compare results between each test. You, as you wrote yourself that time, feel things and never did any serious testing. Not waxing, not skis, not structure and not the way how certain workflow influences end result. And end result is only one... ski speed. So when it comes to this, I take timed test over "feel" every single time. I don't feel like arguing, especially not here, but lets make things like they are. Waxing is for better performance. Even in recreational skiing. And when it comes to performance, service guys on World cup, especially in xc skiing, made things to perfection. So even though in recreational skiing, you don't need performance of World cup skis, you still can make things better if you already bother with waxing. So if all tests show one procedure is by far better then other, then yes, sometimes there's one way only. I don't mind if you use steel brush after scraping. It's fine with me, but let's try not to convince everyone else this is right way. As it's not, and it has been tested over and over again and never had better end result.

Nice. I'll have to try my nylon more often!

 

[PisteOff]

But my horsehair brush is my softest.....I’m so confused now....I’m having an epic flashback! We got brush, don’t brush, wrong kind of brush, a douche......

 

[Lorenzzo]

But my horsehair brush is my softest.....I’m so confused now....I’m having an epic flashback! We got brush, don’t brush, wrong kind of brush, a douche......

I should have learned from Epicski not to read these threads. As I've learned to not go to the tuning room during gatherings...

 

[Sibhusky]

But my horsehair brush is my softest.....I’m so confused now....I’m having an epic flashback! We got brush, don’t brush, wrong kind of brush, a douche......

Which is why I said I don't care what the material is, only the stiffness. Nylon can be stiff or soft. If you can't tell, run it down your face and you'll know.

 

[cantunamunch]

But my horsehair brush is my softest.....I’m so confused now....I’m having an epic flashback! We got brush, don’t brush, wrong kind of brush, a douche......

I feel zero guilt here . pick the pizza you like to eat; don't blame us for anchovy pineapple spinach onion hot oil aftertaste.

 

[focker]

But my horsehair brush is my softest.....I’m so confused now....I’m having an epic flashback! We got brush, don’t brush, wrong kind of brush, a douche......

I was merely advising that I use it as a pre-wax base clean..

 

[PisteOff]

I was merely advising that I use it as a pre-wax base clean..

And I was merely poking fun at the diversity of beliefs with regard to such a simple subject......

 

[Karl B]

I think part of the point is that brass is naturally stiffer than bronze. Bronze is mostly copper...very soft

Copper is actually quite hard. It is harder to machine than low carbon steel. Bronze is made up of copper and around 5% tin. Brass is 60 -70% copper and 30 - 40% zinc depending on the grade of brass. Brass is the softest material of the three.
I use a brass hand brush to clean the structure prior to waxing. After scraping I use a horsehair roto brush followed by a blue nylon roto brush. Presto - your done!

 

[Swiss Toni]

It could be that the groves in the base structure are narrower than the diameter of the bristles. The bristles on nylon brushes can be up to 0.4mm in diameter so they won’t get into some structures and as the groves are V shaped they probably won’t get to the bottom of many others. The bristles on medium bronze brushes are about 0.15 mm in diameter and there are now extra fine steel brushes available with 0.05 mm diameter bristles.

Your ski shop should be able to tell you what grove width they are using, if they have a modern Winterstiger machine it is displayed on the top left hand side of the Structure Parameter tab panel.

 

[trailtrimmer]

The short answer to your question is yes, you need a brass brush for post scraping wax removal from structure unless you want to build a Popeye arm and develop tennis elbow.

My routine:


Skis dry, up to room temp

Quick light brass brushing to dislodge any old wax or debris

Hot scrape with base prep or cheap bulk hydrocarbon wax

Allow to cool for a few minutes, brass brush most of the hot scrape wax from the structure

Apply final temp/fluoro level wax, cool for 20 minutes

Scrape, brass brush, horsehair roto to finish


On race skis I add a step for a second round of base prep with moly and I'll do a light polish after the roto finish. I also use Fiberlene paper for final wax layer on race skis so I scrape less to keep my bases flatter and remove less structure.

 

[Doug Briggs]

Here are some pictures showing waxed, scraped and brushed condition of a new ski in for a 'New Ski Tune' to set bevels and insure a flat base.

Just after waxing. Fairly uniform coverage, not too much, not too little.

After scraping with a sharp, straight scraper. Note that many scrapers loose their straightness after a few sharpenings. The planer type scraper sharpeners can leave irregularities in the scraper and greatly reduce a scrapers life. Sand paper or a file on a flat surface will help keep the edge straight and tends to lead to a longer scraper life.

In this example the base in the top of the photo is fully scraped, the lower section not so much, but not bad.

After a short bristle nylon brush. Note that the base in the lower portion of photo still has visible wax (the very slight horizontal lines) that the nylon brush didn't take of. More nylon time would take it off. Also more time with a scraper would have eliminated the extra time with the brush.

In the production environment I work in I've reduced that amount of post scrape brass brushing per this thread, but some skis and especially boards need it to get the wax that poorly maintained bases will prevent from being scraped off. The bane of my (ski tuning) existence is 'Edge and Wax' on a snowboard because the base irregularities leave tons of wax after scraping and a brush can only do so much to remove a mm of wax from gouged and factory un-flat bases.

 

[cantunamunch]

The planer type scraper sharpeners can leave irregularities in the scraper and greatly reduce a scrapers life. Sand paper or a file on a flat surface will help keep the edge straight and tends to lead to a longer scraper life.

Are you talking about pull sharpeners like the yellow Toko dogtoy one (yeh, we all pretty much know about that one leaving a wavy edge) or power planers like the Mantac?

The bane of my (ski tuning) existence is 'Edge and Wax' on a snowboard because the base irregularities leave tons of wax after scraping and a brush can only do so much to remove a mm of wax from gouged and factory un-flat bases.

I can only offer my previously described trick of Fibertex chucked into a 1/4 sheet power sander; it would seem rather suited to production environments

 

[Doug Briggs]

Are you talking about pull sharpeners like the yellow Toko dogtoy one (yeh, we all pretty much know about that one leaving a wavy edge) or power planers like the Mantac?

The Toko type has no control over straightness, the power planer has some. Both can leave your scraper with a jaggy finish. I have liked the Toko type for occasional sharpening but not for continued maintenance of a scraper. I completely eschew the power planer that we use in the shop and keep a scraper in my personal kit for my use rather than attempting to straighten and sharpen the scrapers that other techs use and sharpen with the planer.

A straight and sharp scraper save tons of post-scraping finish work. Emphasis on straight is deliberate. Gouged and/or not true scrapers take way to much work to get wax off the ski.