Which ski will be easier on my knee for hardpack?

[KingGrump]

Seriously, Monique, just 'cause you're not as old as many of us, it doesn't mean you're still young. You gotta do what we all do: Eat better, don't slouch in front of your unit tests, keep spinning, take lots of Vitamin I, run brush gates until you really understand exactly how much you suck, don't drink alcohol, ski your butt off even though it hurts, then go ahead and have a couple of beers and a burger. Understand that life is grand, and wait for grandchildren even though they're highly unlikely. Then you die.

Oh, SH**, I am doomed.
The only thing I do on that list is beer and burger.
Is it too late to repent?

Did you notice the implicit suggestion of a "ski with softer ankles" cue?

I think @Monique should learn to ski like me. Old and slow.
Much easier on the body.

 

[karlo]

began using them for long haul flights preventatively.

Flew to Hong Kong last week. Could have used it; I was in pain. Coming back was different. Found some stretches that made a huge difference. I'm wondering why two physical therapists didn't recommend or try them.

 

[David]

Seems like a narrower ski would take less torque and therefore be less painful on hard pack. Learning to carve would also seem better for it.

 

[CalvinM]

@Monique I don't really have any input on the ski question. Though it sounds like you have a test figured out this weekend.

However, I'd like to recommend probably the best and most insightful sports rehab person that I have ever met. I've dealt with a rotator cuff injury for a long time which has been very difficult as a climber and mountain guide. I have seen a number of doctors, pts, and chiropractors. Only one of them was able to walk me through my injury from a body mechanic and athlete side of things. He helped me learn to retrain my climbing to maintain a position of strength for my shoulder.

Smart guy and he happens to be in your area.

Check him out: http://coloradospineandsport.com/about-us/meet-our-staff/jeremy-rodgers--dc--atc.html

 

[Monique]

Did you notice the other part of the clause? Did you notice the implicit suggestion of a "ski with softer ankles" cue?

Hm, maybe not directly. I'm not sure how to tell my ankles to be soft, but it seems like a reasonable point. There are multiple shock-absorbing points in the legs - use them all, right?

I agree from my big-picture viewpoint but I made the suggestion-perhaps it could have been worth it to you in the extremely short term.

I'm just worried about anything that might make me more likely to catch an edge. Maybe I shouldn't be - I had one big collision last season and a pretty good yardsale at Loveland a month ago without any real repercussions. But.

Last season, I felt like these 80mm skis were catching an edge a couple of times in a ski day. Alarming. This season, I haven't felt that at all. It's a form of progress, right?

I feel that it is completely appropriate to post this link here

https://www.competitivecyclist.com/learn/dos-and-donts-of-embrocation

Hah!

@karlo - I once tried to use a chemical warmer on my glutes.

The chemical warmer slipped down.

I don't recommend it.

I think actually an ice pack would make more sense for the swollen part of the knee, but maybe heat would keep it from swelling in the first place? Ponder, ponder.

Just a note:

I've been on Elan Speed Wave for three weeks without issue.
With the new snow this week, I upped the width underfoot to 77mm (Elan 777)
My knees are barking at me like the have never done.
Perhaps it is the excitement and fever of fresh snow.
Perhaps it is the ski width.

Are "wide" skis a young person's game?

With the RTM84's going for "binding check" tomorrow, and the 100 mm underfoot soft snow ski as reference, I'll wait the disposition.

Mean while, I did imbibe in knee deep blower on a closed "unskiable" run today. The obligations of wearing the red coat with the white cross......
Yes, It was a trial I would not suggest for 99.9% of the typical guest. It was fun for me however. And "Gasp" on only 77 underfoot. Think of how much more pleasure could have been had if only I had 120+.. ;-) Satire..

Yeah, I dunno. I can tell you I could ski the Zeldas - 106mm underfoot - last season in mixed conditions - some soft, some scraped, all natural. I really think I need some goddamn snow here and a lot of this will clear up!

I think @Monique should learn to ski like me. Old and slow.
Much easier on the body.

I'm trying! It's just I got old(er) before I got better!

Flew to Hong Kong last week. Could have used it; I was in pain. Coming back was different. Found some stretches that made a huge difference. I'm wondering why two physical therapists didn't recommend or try them.

Isn't that weird? I think two things. One, not all PTs are equally gifted. Two, they can't know everything. They just can't.

Seems like a narrower ski would take less torque and therefore be less painful on hard pack. Learning to carve would also seem better for it.

I'm not convinced that carving is easier on the knee than skidding - as long as you're not pushing the heel. Carving tends to involve significant force, no?

@Monique I don't really have any input on the ski question. Though it sounds like you have a test figured out this weekend.

However, I'd like to recommend probably the best and most insightful sports rehab person that I have ever met. I've dealt with a rotator cuff injury for a long time which has been very difficult as a climber and mountain guide. I have seen a number of doctors, pts, and chiropractors. Only one of them was able to walk me through my injury from a body mechanic and athlete side of things. He helped me learn to retrain my climbing to maintain a position of strength for my shoulder.

Smart guy and he happens to be in your area.

Check him out: http://coloradospineandsport.com/about-us/meet-our-staff/jeremy-rodgers--dc--atc.html

Thanks! I tend to pursue solutions in bursts. Right now I am full to bursting (see what I did there?) with modalities and practictioners.

 

[coskigirl]

Flew to Hong Kong last week. Could have used it; I was in pain. Coming back was different. Found some stretches that made a huge difference. I'm wondering why two physical therapists didn't recommend or try them.

I think the pain of long haul flights is underestimated by those that don’t do them regularly so they don’t think of these issues. Stretches and strategic pillow placement are key. Love HK! I’m booking a training in either Shanghai or HK in April and really hope it can be HK. I think it will be Shanghai but holding onto a small glimmer of hope.

 

[karlo]

ice pack would make more sense for the swollen part of the knee, but maybe heat would keep it from swelling in the first place? Ponder, ponder.

right. Depends on cause of swelling. Tightening of muscles, or fluids

 

[Tricia]

My wife was a dirty heel pusher and basically told her to only ski on her Viva X7 till she quit doing it, even in soft snow conditions because skis like that will punish heel pushing. your experience isnt wrong, I am guessing on flatter edge angle with heel pushing that a mid 90 underfoot ski will feel better on the body than a 80mm carving ski.

One of my break out seasons was the year Bob Barnes and Chris Geib talked me into sticking with the Hart Beat (77mm) for a solid season no matter the snow conditions. It was a game changer for me.

 

[cantunamunch]

Hm, maybe not directly. I'm not sure how to tell my ankles to be soft, but it seems like a reasonable point. There are multiple shock-absorbing points in the legs - use them all, right?

Yes - and putting one in a position to act as shock absorber tends to lead to others following suit...

Last season, I felt like these 80mm skis were catching an edge a couple of times in a ski day. Alarming. This season, I haven't felt that at all. It's a form of progress, right?

So, if we were to call that improvement 'better lateral balance'' there might still be room for you to be convinced here:

I'm not convinced that carving is easier on the knee than skidding - as long as you're not pushing the heel. Carving tends to involve significant force, no?

Certainly there is force, but why would you assume it is greater? If anything, and just based on outcome*, the force peaks are lesser with carving. And, if you avoid heel push, the body's job becomes to line itself up so that whatever force there is is lined up in the direction the body is best equipped to deal with it. Like, you know, walking.

Isn't that weird? I think two things. One, not all PTs are equally gifted. Two, they can't know everything. They just can't.

Three, or maybe two and a half, topical use of chemical irritants isn't really a USAian thing.


*using a black box model here, in both cases skier enters the box at point A with velocity v1 and exits at point B with velocity |a|(v2/|v2|) with the constraints that B be achievable in carving. |a| is equal to or greater than zero for both trials. No contraint on transit time.

 

[François Pugh]

Narrow skis will be easier on your knees than wider skis.

I don't carve, really, even when I try to, and I'm a dirty heel pusher, too.

There's your problem. Carving at slight tipping angles, but still tipped enough to be past the critical angle needed to carve, will be easier on your knees than smearing turns (unless you're in moguls - then skiing moguls with too much speed will end up being harder on your knees).

 

[Monique]

Three, or maybe two and a half, topical use of chemical irritants isn't really a USAian thing.

I thought we were talking about stretching, though, in that context (lots of subthreads going on).

There's your problem. Carving at slight tipping angles, but still tipped enough to be past the critical angle needed to carve, will be easier on your knees than smearing turns (unless you're in moguls - then skiing moguls with too much speed will end up being harder on your knees).

I can certainly keep trying.

 

[Tricia]

Are you skiing with a brace to help stabilize that knee at all? I'm sorry your knee still hurts. I can relate. Thankfully, mine doesn't bother me after the fact, and I don't notice it very much during skiing, but, subconsciously, it does affect me. Good on you for being aware of it. My first thought is to take some of the load off of that knee with a good stabilizing brace. (I am having to wait WEEKS for mine. ) And also, as was mentioned above, stand taller to try to take the load off of your quads. You and I are working on a lot of the same stuff, it seems. This early season lack of snow is forcing me to focus extra hard on my technique, and I'm actually OK with that. A silver lining to this crappy start to the season.

I really don't want a brace. I've talked about this in the past. A lot. It boils down to:

* I already wear XL pants without much if any spare room, so fitting a brace would be difficult
* I don't like the feel of braces in general. They impede movement.
* I know several people who started skiing with braces after surgery, and then never stopped. I don't want a permanent exoskeleton.
* My doctor actually didn't think a brace was the end-all be-all; he said it does help prevent ligament damage, but can actually increase the risk of meniscus damage in a fall

As mentioned above in my post - I am already excessively upright.

Its interesting that you should bring this up, because I was skiing with @Jasmine earlier this week and we were talking about you.
Jasmine was amazed at how early you went back to skiing without a brace, and thought that your medical care must be really progressive. Her words were (something like) "I want to listen to Moniques Dr instead of mine because dealing with the brace is a pain. My Dr says he won't clear me to ski without the brace."

She can add her own insights here, but as the conversation goes, its a pain to deal with the brace, but Jasmine's doctor said that she needed to wear her brace for (I can't remember how long), and that she can't pull sleds when she's patrolling, so she is doing some "non ski" patrol placement until she gets the clearance. But she needs to ski mellow stuff with the brace to get her knee back into ski condition.

Meanwhile, she's been skiing hard pack 3 or 4 days with her brace and said her knee feels great.

 

[Jilly]

I think @Monique should learn to ski like me. Old and slow.
Much easier on the body.

If you're OLD and SLOW, then I'm ancient and at a stop!!

One of my break out seasons was the year Bob Barnes and Chris Geib talked me into sticking with the Hart Beat (77mm) for a solid season no matter the snow conditions. It was a game changer for me.

I totally agree with this. I really don't see the need for a 10 pair quiver of skis. I have 2. My tuned down race skis for eastern hardpack (68mm) and my new snow, out west skis. That's it!

Ski one pair and get the technique down first, before moving on to multiple pairs. I haven't even had the 95's out yet. Maybe over Christmas.

And yes, wider skis hurt the knees. There is science on this if you believe science.

 

[SBrown]

Um ... neither? The VMO appears to be the, er, medial part of the leg - closer to the center line. My swelling is on the outside of the quad, the part of the vastus lateralis closest to the knee. I believe that this swelling inhibits my quad muscle from fully contracting, just for fun.

Yes, I need my patella to have lateral play. It's to counteract tightness and scarring from where the patellar tendon is regrown. In this surgery, they "harvest" the middle of the tendon and use it to recreate the ACL. Thus there is a gap in the tendon that apparently, in 80% of cases, closes up on its own. But of course there's scar tissue from that.

Patellar mobilization appears to be standard PT protocol for this sort of surgery. https://mikereinold.com/rehabilitation-following-acl-reconstruction-surgery/ - especially for the patellar tendon graft.

When my patella is held too tightly, I start hearing clicking as the patella grinds against whatever's behind it, and then if I don't work on it, eventually it gets acute. As in "last Mother's Day I had to download because my knee made a huge popping sound when I tried to step into my binding, it hurt like a bitch, and I thought I had torn my ACL all over again."

So, I think we have discussed this, that my knee issues are entirely patellar. That wide v narrow ski thing isn't what bothers them; I have lots of lovely joint space in there, except behind my patellas, where I have none. I get that same swelling you are talking about, particularly on the lateral side of the left knee. That quad hasn't fired in 15 years, I don't think.

Taping my knees helps a lot, trying to keep the patellas in the groove. But mostly it's the snow surface. The vibrations from rough snow are what make me hurt. I have discovered that the wide-narrow thing isn't really my issue, it's the amount of feedback coming into my legs. Because then my patellas rattle around harder on my leg bones, I guess. Riding the edge of the ski puts a lot less vibration in there than riding a flat ski. I don't always do it correctly, but wide or narrow, the knees feel a lot better the less ski I have on snow (when it isn't super soft and smooth snow, that is).

And yes, It's why I bought the Renouns, they really do dampen things. Which is not to make this a buy-a-new-ski thread!!

 

[SBrown]

I guess I should continue ... except that I'm getting perilously close to talking about something I know nothing about ... but it is easier to ride the edge of a narrow ski than a wide ski. Although, if the narrow ski gives you a lot of feedback, then maybe a wider, damper ski IS the answer.

Anyway, I just wanted to point out that while I'm sure the science on wide v narrow skis applies somewhat in this case -- obviously more torque will not help things -- I don't think it's the main thing. Monique isn't talking about skiing 113s, here.

 

[Monique]

Its interesting that you should bring this up, because I was skiing with @Jasmine earlier this week and we were talking about you.
Jasmine was amazed at how early you went back to skiing without a brace, and thought that your medical care must be really progressive. Her words were (something like) "I want to listen to Moniques Dr instead of mine because dealing with the brace is a pain. My Dr says he won't clear me to ski without the brace."

She can add her own insights here, but as the conversation goes, its a pain to deal with the brace, but Jasmine's doctor said that she needed to wear her brace for (I can't remember how long), and that she can't pull sleds when she's patrolling, so she is doing some "non ski" patrol placement until she gets the clearance. But she needs to ski mellow stuff with the brace to get her knee back into ski condition.

Meanwhile, she's been skiing hard pack 3 or 4 days with her brace and said her knee feels great.

Yeah. There are definitely tradeoffs. I've wondered if going back to skiing early has impacted my recovery. I do think that ignoring early signs of knee pain (it's REALLY hard to know the line in the first 6 months between acceptable and unacceptable, when they tell you "some" pain is necessary but not "too much" pain ...) in pursuit of being cleared at six months can't have helped. But our bodies are different. I have inflammation issues that a person in "normal" health doesn't have. I've spoken to people who've had ACL reconstructions and have just had so many incredibly different experiences. So ... I really can't know. Being able to ski "safely" in an ortho's view (not re-tearing the ACL) is different from whether it will have other negative impacts.

So @Jasmine - listen to your doctor! Your surgery wasn't identical to mine - if only because it was a different doctor. Every doctor has their own protocol, even within the same practice. And you're skiing without pain, which is not something I've yet experienced, so it sounds like things are working for you. I'm not suggesting anyone else avoid a brace, especially if it's what their doctor wants them to do.

So, I think we have discussed this, that my knee issues are entirely patellar. That wide v narrow ski thing isn't what bothers them; I have lots of lovely joint space in there, except behind my patellas, where I have none. I get that same swelling you are talking about, particularly on the lateral side of the left knee. That quad hasn't fired in 15 years, I don't think.

Taping my knees helps a lot, trying to keep the patellas in the groove. But mostly it's the snow surface. The vibrations from rough snow are what make me hurt. I have discovered that the wide-narrow thing isn't really my issue, it's the amount of feedback coming into my legs. Because then my patellas rattle around harder on my leg bones, I guess. Riding the edge of the ski puts a lot less vibration in there than riding a flat ski. I don't always do it correctly, but wide or narrow, the knees feel a lot better the less ski I have on snow (when it isn't super soft and smooth snow, that is).

And yes, It's why I bought the Renouns, they really do dampen things. Which is not to make this a buy-a-new-ski thread!!

I guess I should continue ... except that I'm getting perilously close to talking about something I know nothing about ... but it is easier to ride the edge of a narrow ski than a wide ski. Although, if the narrow ski gives you a lot of feedback, then maybe a wider, damper ski IS the answer.

Anyway, I just wanted to point out that while I'm sure the science on wide v narrow skis applies somewhat in this case -- obviously more torque will not help things -- I don't think it's the main thing. Monique isn't talking about skiing 113s, here.

Susan, thanks for chiming in! You definitely have a better grasp of what I'm dealing with than probably anyone else who's posted before, because you have been "blessed" with a similar issue that you've dealt with for years now.

What specific form of taping do you use? I'd love to try it.

Renouns aren't in the budget =/

Maybe the feedback on hard snow forces our stabilizing muscles to fire more and tightens everything up?

I realized I have to pick up my ARVs in the morning anyway if I want to ski anything at all (my boot's over there, of course, which means I'll also be skiing in a cold boot ... sigh!). So maybe I'll try the ARVs. They'll be freshly waxed! @Doug Briggs did confirm Armada did a great job with the factory tune. He's also the one, last season, who suggested The Ski would be nicer on my knee than the 80mm ski. Which it was. I don't recall why I decided to go back to the Viva. I think I figured it would hold an edge better for the current "snow" situation.

 

[Uncle Louie]

My sense, and research indicates, that narrower is better.

This.

 

[Monique]

See Susan's post. It describes exactly my experience, and is why I wonder if the ARV won't be better.

I'll find out this weekend.

 

[SBrown]

Susan, thanks for chiming in! You definitely have a better grasp of what I'm dealing with than probably anyone else who's posted before, because you have been "blessed" with a similar issue that you've dealt with for years now.

What specific form of taping do you use? I'd love to try it.

I just kind of make it up, but I did get doctor's blessing. The main thing is putting tape around the outside of my knee (lateral) to push the patella toward the inside (medial). Sometimes I also put a piece underneath the patella, and I've even put one across to pull it in addition to pushing. I watched a bunch of youtube videos and stuff on the KT site and just adapted. I experiment, for sure. I also use Rock Tape instead of KT, it was sticking longer. Hang on ... I'll look for some photos.

Often I do something like this, but only on one side. Sometimes I do both sides, then use a piece to "hold" patella to the inside. Look up McConnell taping, too.

Here are some xrays from about 6 years ago, to give an idea of what I'm saying. They are crammed in there a little more, now. (PSA: don't let your bookworm little kid sit for hours with his or her legs in an M shape, btw. I may have started this way congenitally some, but I used to sit like that, not a good thing.)

 

[Corgski]

Seeing it has become tradition on this site to overwhelm you with unwanted advice, I'll join in.

I have set back injury recoveries years by rushing a recovery by a few months, not worth it. I also suspect that as a result of your injury you were forced to follow a routine of isolation exercise and stretches and these have started to become hard on your body. Some of what you describe sounds a little like typical overtraining. Isolation exercises and stretches have their place but it is also very easy to be hurting yourself with them. Stretching has dropped dramatically in status in the exercise world, partly because it makes you injury prone. Don't go beyond normal range unless you have to for a particular activity (ballet, gymnastics).

Did you have to drop deadlifts altogether (you cannot lift 20lbs off the floor without risking hurting yourself) or is it that you are unable to perform a deadlift with the weight you feel you should be doing it with? People sometimes avoid the traditional weight lifting exercises because they feel they have to perform them at a level that approaches their muscles' limit and an injury is preventing them from doing that. The classic lifts are great because they exercise your body as a system. Bad thing about them is that one bad knee sabotages a lot. Nevertheless my personal experience is that it is often, not always, better to perform them at a much lower load than try to work around them too much.

Every training injury I have ever had has been a result of isolation exercises. Once again, they do have their place but watch out for them.