Where Does/Should Separation Happen?

[Fishbowl]

I'm asking as an improving recreational skier, so whilst I don't mind things getting technical later, could you guys try to keep it relatively simple to begin. Thanks.

I'm talking upper/lower body separation, and if it should be occurring primarily at the level of the lower spine, or at the hip sockets themselves. After a comment about separation happening when femurs rotate in the hip sockets in another thread, I spent the weekend trying to pay attention to where it happens for me. The vast majority of my rotation seems to be in my lower spine with my shoulders rotating over my hips. The only time my femurs seemed to appreciably rotate was when I deliberately pivoted my turns.I do try to drive my turns from the feet up, but seem to find it hard to not let my hips follow my skis despite my shoulders staying square to the fall line.

 

[Rod9301]

At the hips, femurs rotating in the hip socket,

 

[Josh Matta]

^^^ correct....



If you want "easy" separation try this odd task.....its only odd to those who do not understand the rotational plane of balance. Go skiing tip your feet your feet right for a right turn but try to turn your skis left and vice a versa. This usually accomplishes separation at the hip socket joint with out pivoting and with out dreaded spinal angulation or spinal counter. Skis will only turn which ever way they are tipped it is actually impossible to "unturn" a ski and generally you end up with better Rotational Balance by turning your feet against the turn.

 

[Mike King]

Not the spine. That puts your back in a compromised (weak) position.

 

[LiquidFeet]

....
I'm talking upper/lower body separation, and if it should be occurring primarily at the level of the lower spine, or at the hip sockets themselves. After a comment about separation happening when femurs rotate in the hip sockets in another thread, I spent the weekend trying to pay attention to where it happens for me. The vast majority of my rotation seems to be in my lower spine with my shoulders rotating over my hips. The only time my femurs seemed to appreciably rotate was when I deliberately pivoted my turns.I do try to drive my turns from the feet up, but seem to find it hard to not let my hips follow my skis despite my shoulders staying square to the fall line.

It sounds like this question involves more than "where." @Fishbowl, are you also asking the community if rotating the legs from the hip sockets instead of the lower spine always creates a rushed and ineffective pivoted turn entry? If so, the answer is no. But it certainly can, if a rushed turn entry is what a skier is seeking.

But there are other questions along this line of inquiry.
---What's the use of learning to do pivot slips (a drill that totally uses active femur rotation at the hip)?
---When can good things come from pivoting the skis to turn downhill in the first half of the turn?
---When can good things come from pivoting the skis to turn across the hill in the second half of the turn?
---Does "turning the legs from the hip sockets" always mean active, muscular rotation of the legs/feet/skis?

@Fishbowl, are you also thinking about any of these issues? These questions will prompt more "active" discussion than your original question of where, spine or hip socket, the rotation "should" be happening. Everyone here will probably say from the hip.

 

[Fishbowl]

It sounds like this question involves more than "where." @Fishbowl, are you also asking the community if rotating the legs from the hip sockets instead of the lower spine always creates a rushed and ineffective pivoted turn entry? If so, the answer is no. But it certainly can, if a rushed turn entry is what a skier is seeking.

But there are other questions along this line of inquiry.
---What's the use of learning to do pivot slips (a drill that totally uses active femur rotation at the hip)?
---When can good things come from pivoting the skis to turn downhill in the first half of the turn?
---When can good things come from pivoting the skis to turn across the hill in the second half of the turn?
---Does "turning the legs from the hip sockets" always mean active, muscular rotation of the legs/feet/skis?

@Fishbowl, are you also thinking about any of these issues? These questions will prompt more "active" discussion than your original question of where, spine or hip socket, the rotation "should" be happening. Everyone here will probably say from the hip.

Yes, sorry, it is a poorly worded question, which I think that comes from not being able to articulate in words what I want to achieve on the slopes. And yes, much thought had gone into the subjects you highlighted.

I have been trying to “clean” up my technique by focusing on actions of the feet to initiate my turns. I feel I have made great progress relaxing to release, and ridding my turns of any stem or pushing motions.

The next step for me would be to work on my upper/lower body separation, which seems to happen for me more at the top of the pelvis than in the sockets themselves. Conceptually I know that the femurs should be rotating freely in their sockets, so my OP is really a request for help in how to achieve this goal and stop twisting my hips under my shoulders. Any help is gratefully accepted.

 

[Rod9301]

Practice moving your hips first, not torso, towards the outside ski, really early in the turn.

 

[Doby Man]

In my opinion, separation is the single most influential factor separates advanced intermediates from experts. It is also a critical factor for most all other athletic disciplines. “Separation” happens along the entire skeleton in three planes: 1. Rotary separation: from ankles to the knees, hips, spine and neck. 2. Vertical separation with fore/aft flexion from ankles, knees, hips spine and neck and, 3. Lateral or angular separation is typically at the waist and symbiotic with rotary but also at the knee when it is bent and the femurs are turning in their hip sockets. I refer to all three as “global separation”. What separation fundamentally refers to (for me) is the relationship between the CoM and BoS where the ability to manage them separately without affecting each other negatively allows us to control our balance, leverage and momentum throughout the turn.

The problem with top down instruction (using the upper body to control the skiis) is that it is running too many kinesthetic directives between the CoM and BoS that hamper the separation between the two. When our primary directive comes from the feet, this allows the upper body to relax and enjoy the ride. When the primary directive starts at the core and hips, the kinetic chain from CoM to BoS stiffens and becomes less pliable. Like many aspects of skiing, trying to identify and manage each and every separate aspect of separation is only going to drive you crazy. It takes a lot of skill and experience to work on most factors of separation in isolated form except for perhaps the bulk of our rotary separation at the waist and the flexion/extension we use for vertical separation.

Use drills to train the body and leave the head more space for calculating the price of tea in China. While typical human anatomy has the range of motion capacity to produce all the movements required to ski well, the brain does not have the capacity to manage each in strict isolation. Drills allow us to increase our capacity for movement without the hindrance of filtering it all through a cognitive filter. If a skier can’t make the changes they need through sheer focus while skiing, they need drills.

An example of more visible global separation we want to experience between the CoM and BoS can be found in the neck of most birds, as they perch on a branch that is oscillating in multiple directions in the breeze, watch how the body moves with the branch and how the head remains still due to global separation of the neck. The movement is almost uncanny to watch and something similar is the goal in skiing.

 

[PTskier]

Here's one way: Stand up now. Feet side by side. Visualize your turn to the right. Push the (inside) right hip forward as far as you can go. Have the right shoulder/arm/hand follow the hip forward, and bring the outside shoulder/arm/hand back. Raise the hip and that whole side of the body as far as you can at the same time. Here's Hirscher with his skis going to his right. His hips and body are facing left. His inside side is as high as he can get it. Also note that his inside foot is back as far as he can get it (in his really stiff 150 flex plug boots). Some say to pull the outside side of the body back. That's OK as long as one does not have the tendency to get into the back seat. Pushing the inside side forward helps prevent back seat skiing. So does pulling the inside foot strongly back all the way through every turn. As to which bones rotate in which sockets--I can't think of that when I'm skiing. I can think of pushing a hip and side of the body forward. When to do this separation---all the time except when running straight. From the very beginning of the turn, and hold it until the skis are starting the next turn.

 

[karlo]

I think both are possible depending on the situation. But, in most skiing, I think one does not intentionally move the lower spine

 

[razie]

separation should happen at the pelvis, you should not stress the spine much.

I don't like the phrase "femurs turn in the hip sockets" because it directs attention to steering. Also, that is a ball/socket joint, so has 3 degrees of freedom. Femurs will rotate also if you squat or take the leg to the side. They will also rotate along their length if you squat and then edge the skis... so I find that description quite confusing.

In good carving, the skis are engaged and turn on their own, separation occurs because the hips turn the other way, or counter to the turning of the skis.

This is in fact the best way to work on it: strong inside half - move your inside arm and hip forward through the turn, so as the skis turn, the hips turn the other way and create counter.

A bunch of drills are good for this, they all have to do with hip awareness.

 

[karlo]

hip

Are pelvis and hip synonymous?

 

[LiquidFeet]

Are pelvis and hip synonymous?

Pretty much. Ski instructors tend to use the term "hips" to avoid using the term "pelvis" with adult students. Maybe this is because pelvis is an anatomical term and might sound overly jargony. Or it might sound too intimate when used in a lesson with some adult clients.

Anyone know other reasons instructors tend to say hips intead of pelvis?

 

[karlo]

Anyone know other reasons instructors tend to say hips intead of pelvis?

Yeah. I use hip because I don't know any better.

 

[James]

Hip is the head of the femur. I learned that on epic amazingly. Think "hip replacement".
Common usage of "hip" is the top of the pelvis area. That's how I used it.
One might want to check what people think when you use "hip".

 

[KingGrump]

One might want to check what people think when you use "hip".

 

[Josh Matta]

Yeah I stopped saying hip because I think lots of people are clueless about hips and its kinda of vague.

With anyone old enough to understand anatomy I say upper leg bone and/or femur) and Pelvis Bone.

 

[razie]

Hip is the head of the femur. I learned that on epic amazingly. Think "hip replacement".
Common usage of "hip" is the top of the pelvis area. That's how I used it.
One might want to check what people think when you use "hip".

Yah - in common parlance, I think hip is used to reference the top of the pelvis.

I guess to be more accurate, good separation occurs at the hip joint. Of course, most often the spine is involved more or less, but we want to minimize that.

There's also a question about what exactly you mean by separation... I have seen it used to describe both lateral movements, as in "the crunch" or counterbalancing as well as rotational separation, as in counter or counteraction.

I normally use it as a general concept of separating the upper and lower body... not that that makes a difference in terms of where it happens...

 

[Josh Matta]

I hate the term 'crunch" .

IMO it causes spinal angulation. Well it might not be an opinion.

While skiing go on a traverse, carved if you want. Crunch the side of your body that is downhill, which you are really doing is causing spinal angulation. Instead of crunch I like to talk about the inside pelvis bone lifting and raising, this should cause as much of the lateral separation as possible to come from hip socket, I concede that is really angualted turns there is probably some degree of spinal angulation, but I think most people can agree that we want as much lateral separation as possible in the hip socket.

 

[razie]

Agreed. Lifting the inside hip is a very good cue for this.

The crunch exists though even in it's "good" form because at high lateral forces you still need to keep the body upright, lined up Andy very the only hinge point and some effort is there. But I agree, I don't use "the crunch" much for that reason - I do think that it helps with beginners though, to get them thinking about activating those muscles.