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Eleeski

Making fresh tracks
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  1. Not sure if you're seriously asking or just cracking a joke, but for the benefit of anyone who's not aware, NARSID = Non Avalanche Related Snow Immersion Death. As in, the snow is deep, you get yourself buried in it, suffocate, and die.

    I will use this opportunity to repost this excellent resource that everyone who skis in deep snow conditions should read: https://www.deepsnowsafety.org/
  2. I was being silly but now I know what the acronym stands for. There are many risks while skiing. Deep powder has its unique challenges which should be respected.
  3. On a lighter note, I'm dying for deep powder (and open lifts).
  4. Eric
  5. Why am I generating numbers and bullet points?
 

SpikeDog

You want Big Air, kid?
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Sure, you can get too much powder. If it's heavy enough and the slope flat enough, it can be misery. Or as Josh says "your skis are too skinny."
 

markojp

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FWIW, I've been in 'too deep' once many years ago at Myoko Kogen back in the skinny ski days. We found a good, steepish pitch. The snow was just stupid deep, I mean like shoulder deep just trying to push yourself down. Im sure some 120's would have gotten down a bit better, but It took forever. In retrospect, it was dangerous and pretty stupid to be on that slope on any ski.

On another occasion on a superlative powder day, a friend augered in head first into a drift. Only his feet and skis were out of the snow. There was no way he would have gotten out by himself. It was just dumb luck I was close enough to get to him.
 

Muleski

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I think it pretty much boils down to your experience and comfort zone, and knowing when to say no. The older I get, the more of a pu**y I become. Which is fine. There are days when there is so much snow that saying in makes sense for us. My wife is an excellent powder skier, but before the latest generation of wide skis, there were days when we were "on the road" and we had more snow that she wanted to ski on her Snow Rangers. Maybe an honest 36" with deeper drifts. Just not fun for her. 24" and less drifting....Bring it on. She's been skiing since she was 18 months old, and fun is good.

It may be that we piled on a lot of miles before the days of skiing on top of everything. Dunno.

In retrospect, I have only had a few scary days in really deep snow. One was digging a friend out of a tree well. Two of us were behind him, saw it happen, knew what to do, and we dug him out. Quickly and calmly. He luckily had an air pocket, and he remained calm. If he were skiing alone, he would have died. No question.

The second had nothing to do with skiing danger. I was at Alta with a bunch of friends. We were talking the last afternoon flight back East, so the plan was to ski until about 1PM, then hop in the van. It had snowed a lot that night, and kept snowing that AM...pretty heavily. Enough snow that I was surprised that we were not locked in. They were bombing like crazy in the early AM. I would guess that there was about four feet in spots. And yes, this was skinny ski days. My powder skis were a pair of 210cm Fischer GS skis.

We were going to do a few last laps on the Wildcat chair, before time was up. On the first, I "threw a shoe", and lost a ski. The problem was that I kept skiing on one until I stopped, and with the visibility, I had no real idea where it was. Stupid. I was the last in the group, and they just kept ripping. NO idea. They circled back, and were glad to see me "OK", but feverishly digging with my other ski to try to find the lost one. Pretty soon we had all six of us looking. I was absolutely soaked, breathing hard, and my pulse was racing. After a solid hour of this, time had come to either leave the ski and fly home or not. So, I made my way down in thigh deep powder on one ski. That was a treat. Took a shower, flew home. Contacted Alta, and gave them some details in case somebody found the ski. In fact about there weeks later, somebody called. Found!

I was about 30, and in great shape when that took place. I think about being 30 years older, and that could be a life threatening move. I live at sea level. If it happened again, I'd spend 10 minutes and say, "It's only a ski." I bet that in close to a thousand powder days over the years, I may have lost a ski 5 times. One other was also at Alta {must be cursed}, and it took about five minutes to find it. Pretty sure that I had not cleaned my boot sole when we stopped at Watson for coffee the morning of the big loss. Or so I'm guessing. Solly all metal trace binders set around 14, as I recall. Of course my wife did nicely suggest powder leashes. Why? Haha.

I bet if it had been 18" or less of new snow, the tail would have been sticking out, etc. No issues, would have walked to it and clicked in. The skiing had been great, BTW.

The third was at Telluride. It was snowing like mad, and had been for two days. They were digging out lifts. This was in 1980. So I was ripping down one of the trails on the front face, with a group of guys. It was not totally bottomless, but close. Beautiful. Visibility, not so much. All of a sudden I felt nothing underneath me. Next thing I knew, I hit hard. Both knees into my chest. Wind knocked out of me, goggles broken. Now, I am sure, concussed. And lying on about 3" of snow. WTF? Turns out that they had been keeping one cat track on the mountain cleared every couple of hours in case they had an emergency. No warning. About a 10 foot drop onto the cat track. I later heard that "normally" they had a rope up to warn of that drop. Evidently the biggest one around. Boom! Bottomless steep to flat rock hard. Great luck. I was lucky not to break something. Lesson is that I had been there for 3-4 days, was skiing with friends who worked there, but I did not "really" know the place. I was a bit bold. Of course they didn't warn me! Let's say that Telluride was a bit different then. I should have skipped the powder and bought some real estate, which they could not give away at the time!

So I'm a big believer in knowing where you are. I was a stupid age 26 that day in Telluride. Have lost a few friends over the years, not being fully aware of where they were skiing. As the snow piles up, and visibility goes down, it's really important, IMO.

When I was a kid, we lived in Europe. On one of our first trips to Chamonix, we skied the Valle Blanche, one of the easier routes, as I was about 10. That night at dinner, my dad was pretty quiet, my mother was really quiet, other than tell my much older brother to shut up. He and Dad, BTW, had skied the tough route a couple of times that week. Turns out that three people had been lost in a crevasse that very day. Gone. That led to a long conversation about safety, knowledge, experience, guides, risk management, respecting the mountains, etc. A lot sunk in even at that age....at least the headlines. We got into the habit of a guide, referred by people we knew, whenever offpiste in Europe.

I've heard a lot about Japan, but we have only been there once, decades ago. A few years ago, we had the opportunity to go with a group, and had to pass. Killed me! Four couples, all really good skiers. When they got back, I was talking to one. This guy was a CMH guide for about five years, back in the day. He said that they had two days when there was "just too much snow." How much? Hard to tell, but probably five-six feet overnight. Jeez!!! That I have never seen.
 

mdf

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When you lose a ski, yeah the snow can be too deep. I spent 2 hours searching for one once, but I did eventually find it.
 

Jim Kenney

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Didn’t read this whole thread, but I know what DBos is concerned about. I experienced the deepest fresh snow skiing of my life during a week in late Jan 2017 at Snowbird when they received 81”. Day after day of 12-18” snowfalls. One day during a heavy, low-viz squall I went out on the mtn with another friend. We were doing middle or lower cirque where the accumulated new snow was about three to four feet deep. He was a better/more aggressive skier than me and he fell in a pocket of snow that was even deeper. After a few seconds only his head popped up out of the snow. I was about 50 yrds downhill and I was really glad to see him. In the deep conditions it would have been very hard/impossible for me to climb back up in time if his breathing had been obstructed. I took a fairly high speed fall that day or the next that left most of my body under the snow, but I had one arm free and used it to clear snow away from my face, which was sort of sideways to the snow. I struggled, but couldn’t get the rest of my body out. Fortunately, this happened under Gad 2 chair at the bottom of STH and after a minute a friendly stranger came by and offered me the end of his ski pole and yanked me out. I spent about five more minutes there looking for one ski that came off and was buried under the snow. That night as the snow kept falling I had a fearful thought in bed that if I’d been alone in a remote part of the mtn and stuck face down it could have been ugly. My fears were associated with falling, not if you stay up and keep moving. My son has skied in the latter conditions, where you are submerged even while moving forward. That’s like what Grump described, keep moving until you come out it and don’t fall. Definitely want to try to ski with a buddy on super deep snow days. I’ll post some pictures here tonight from Snowbird, late Jan 2017. Maybe westerners who experience these conditions once or twice a season are more comfortable, but as a fellow Virginian who has only seen this kind of snow once or twice a lifetime it was pretty intense. Fun, but intense:)
 

SkiNurse

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@Drahtguy Kevin says that's why he's jealous of @SkiNurse, at 4'13.5" she has the deepest powder days.
And the most!!!:yahoo:
midgets.jpg
 

SSSdave

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My suspicion is some of those posting are really not too familiar with really epic snow dumps because they are so uncommon except at a few regions and resorts. The Sierra Nevada is one of those places that every winter tends to have a few multi day storms with dumps over 4 feet deep before slopes open for skiing. How such snow skis has much to do with snow water content through a storm, how long it has had to metamorphosize, and what kind of skis one is using. There is snow and then there is lighter snow and then there is lighter lighter snow. Our storms as well as those in the Northwest tend to have higher water content than The Rockies however we do occasionally have huge dumps of really dry snow at depth just as even highest areas of the Rockies occasionally gets cement.

Most of the West Coast winter storms move southeast out of the Gulf of Alaska, starting out with a warm front of higher water content snow that ends with a pool of windier cold air that dives down under the storm front atmosphere. What that does is set up a snow profile of denser more stuck together snow below with lighter drier looser snow on top. Accordingly after most of our epic dumps we are not really skiing down through the full snow column but rather just in top layers. Skiing such variable water content snow is more difficult the more one gets down into the wetter heavier layers. At times a storm will dump a huge depth of snow that has relatively wet water content even up at the top of the column. When that happens one can only really ski with modestly wide skis, the steepest areas without getting bogged down, and turning can be strenuous. So we are not talking about that kind of "too deep snow" because it really doesn't ski that deep and takes special skis like spats to tame..

However there are times like during the January 21, 2017 storm when the full snow column is really dry snow as is more common in Cottonwood Canyon. That storm had left 23 inches overnight and 66 inches over 48 hours at the resort I skied just as the last flakes were moving east. With snow like that when one pushes a pole in, it goes right down easily without reaching anything firm. I'm a small person 66" 137# and was easily able to make lots of my usual rabbit like turns using my 173cm S7's, (138,108,116mm) way down deep. However when I took a run during the day with my 155cm Scott The Ski skis (120,88,112) that are normally fine in 2 foot deep fresh dry snow, it was futile. I just went so deep there was way too much resistance. The above noted, I can imagine really really dry really really deep snow that is over body height, where skiing could be futile even with the S7's though probably not with widest tools.

If a cold storm drops dry enough snow, I have no trouble skiing moderately deep powder even on low gradient slopes that goes against the common wisdom of only steeper slopes. My S7 tracks below after just 23 inches of really dry cold snow that was in front of a main lodge in the afternoon on a day when most of the popular steeper areas had already been tracked out because again skiers don't expect to be able to ski such low gradients after normal water content storms, and thus had ignored those slopes.


DodgeR-au_ch1a.jpg
 
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KingGrump

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@SSSdave brought up a good point about moisture content of the snow. Lake Tahoe dumps are often not the same as dumps in Utah or Colorado.
Two to three feet of fresh in CO or UT is magic. Two or three feet of fresh in Tahoe will often yield ankle/boot top depth.

108" was dumped on us in 4 days during the gathering in 2012. Squaw was on wind hold for the entire time period. On the first day the lifts were open, bunch of us from the gathering took a "powder lesson" with an local instructor (also with the gathering). We were first into lots of areas. Most places were only boot deep. We were skiing on top of the snow rather than in it. If the same amount of moisture was dump in UT, we would be interlodged for days if not weeks.

Pic of how much snow fell in the four days. The ground was completely bare prior to this dump. This was taken about a week afterward so lots of compaction had already occurred.

2012-03-19 16.06.37.jpg
 

karlo

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From reading the posts, it seems to me it's a matter of one's tolerance for risk. Off resort, we would all have buddy, transceiver, shovel and probe, in the event of being buried in an avalanche. So, on resort, in very deep powder, with a chance of burial in a fall, possibly one in which one cannot be seen, maybe simply take the same precautions, or not.

Me, if faced with this scenario in-resort, I would feel i ought not rely on the patrol saying it this deep unconsolidated snow being avalanche-safe. I wouldn't take my kids. And, I certainly wouldn't go without a buddy I didn't have confidence in to respond.
 
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markojp

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Sometimes it really IS just too deep to get down the hill. Doesn't really matter if it's lift served or not. It's just not 'go' if the conditions don't allow, even with all the gear and great partners. It often isn't about absolute snow depth, but about stability. Sorry to be a school marme about this stuff, but it's important and saves lives.
 

Don in Morrison

I Ski Better on Retro Day
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Never been there, never done that. I'm a day tripper, and if it snows that much the night before, I-70 will be really iffy, if it is even open at all, so I won't be able to get there in the first place. Doesn't sound like something I wanna do anyway. Don't have the right gear, either. My "powder" skis are 163 x 80.
 

markojp

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Deep... but not TOO deep. And stable. An amazing day several seasons
ago...

karens.jpg
 

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Core2

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The best days are 1-2' of blower that all came down within a few hours and hasn't consolidated. If it consolidates, no bueno. If it is more than 2' you get into the suffocate and die or lose your equipment until June type of skiing. IMO if you are worrying more about not dying than you are about how much fun you are having, it is too deep.
 

Yo Momma

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Was living in northern NM and skiing Wolf Creek. Epic depth...... I remember thinking, "Damn I need a snorkel........ keep it bouncing.......... up for air then back under...... rinse and repeat....... thought OMG this is SICK! " A buddy went upside down and unable to self arrest. The other Doc and I were the last two above him........ somehow I made it off the cliff I was on, and down to him...........it was surreal........ I don't remember dropping it, or almost anything about the experience........... I remember the digging and feeling the circulation cut off in my hands.......... I hadn't removed my poles and they were wrapping around my wrists as I was digging............ then the blood stained snow............ blood is a striking color against the backdrop of snow......... a truly unexpected combo of color that startled me to my core............ when we got to his head there was blood everywhere......... he had bitten through clear through his lip trying to get air.......... he was blue and traumatized as we scraped the ice from his nose and mouth, yelling his wife's and kid's names as we extracted him........... He always hugs me whenever I get back there............ we are Bros for Life! :beercheer:
 

socalgal

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Was living in northern NM and skiing Wolf Creek. Epic depth...... I remember thinking, "Damn I need a snorkel........ keep it bouncing.......... up for air then back under...... rinse and repeat....... thought OMG this is SICK! " A buddy went upside down and unable to self arrest. The other Doc and I were the last two above him........ somehow I made it off the cliff I was on, and down to him...........it was surreal........ I don't remember dropping it, or almost anything about the experience........... I remember the digging and feeling the circulation cut off in my hands.......... I hadn't removed my poles and they were wrapping around my wrists as I was digging............ then the blood stained snow............ blood is a striking color against the backdrop of snow......... a truly unexpected combo of color that startled me to my core............ when we got to his head there was blood everywhere......... he had bitten through clear through his lip trying to get air.......... he was blue and traumatized as we scraped the ice from his nose and mouth, yelling his wife's and kid's names as we extracted him........... He always hugs me whenever I get back there............ we are Bros for Life! :beercheer:
Wow:eek:
 

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