What does "finishing your turns" mean?

[James]

@James, shouldn't that really depend on the ice density?

Well, yeah. What @Read Blinn was talking about was the densest, hardest stuff. Not grippy.

@James, Technique should be the biggest factor of concern regarding grip on ice: dampened movements, weighted transitions, early carving in the high "C", and actually carving the ski "fore to aft" for increased penetration is ALL we can do after the terrain and ski is said and done.

Ok. So, what's this high 'C' carving you're talking about? A great theory, let's just carve the top of the turn because that gives us more speed control. Those who usually refer to that have a different definition of carving- something other than tail follows tip in a single line or very close to it. A brushed carve for instance.- controlled skid essentially.

Any type of pitch and carving of the top, middle, and bottom. Or are we skidding the bottom? Then it would seem silly to carve the top, high 'C'. So, our completely carved turn, on pitch, now has doing 30mph. On the first turn. Let's go for the next. Wait, there's no room! Out of trail. If there is room by turn 2 you're really flying. So is a fully carved turn the answer? I'd love to see it on the entry to National at Stowe. Then what to do with all the speed entering the mogul field?

The other thing about world cup skiing is what event? There's almost no,(basically none but let's leave a modicum of possibility), high 'C' in a world cup slalom turn. On ice. They just don't do it. Maybe back in the early, early 2000's when men were on 155's and slalom was a mini gs. Not since.
But let's look. World's best, Hirscher, slo mo couple of average slalom turns, then a flush which isn't relevant.


What do we have? No top of turn, it's a massive pivot; unweighted transitions, (skis are in the air); sliding/skiding! on massive edge angle; then hook up at the bottom of the turn, skis at near max edge angle of 60-70 deg. No high 'C' at all. More like a low 'J' turn. Very typical of modern, and straight ski, slalom.

To do that requires massive commitment to the turn, super high edge angle, very sharpedges, lots of strength. Probably using a 0.5/5 deg.
Still, no high c, no upside down, at all.

So in a rec setting, why not skid the top, then get the edges at high angle and try to hook up somewhere after the fall line? When that hooking up will change your direction instead of adding speed? Kind of like Hirscher does. But at a much lower level. Very much of an on/off edge action just feathered.

 

[Doby Man]

What “carving the high C” means to me in my own experience and personal frame of reference is carving the entire turn and leaving no time/space for the transition. More time/space for carving allows the skier more room to spread the turn forces within the allotted space given. When we eliminate the non-carving transition, we put the extra carving at the top of the turn and not the bottom. A non carving transition simply picks up more speed while there is no directional control. More upside down carving in turn phase one provides a modicum of speed stability for the fully carved turn. Additionally, rocking the ski fore to aft can “round out” a fully carved turn can slightly increase the “degree of turn” thus providing another slighter modicum of speed stability through more directional control. Maintain dynamic pressure on the ski (one that is progressive and consistent throughout the entire turn) requires us to manage the forces without “giving them up” with a long wasteful transition and unnecessary disengagement and re-engagement. Mentioned before, fast constant tipping can obliterate the transition mark between the RR tracks of two linking turns. Though, because these turns do produce vertical separation significantly wider than at transition, those tracks start to lose their parallel status.

To me, there is no shame in skidding. I just love shaving my way down a smooth bump run and brushing a turn for speed control whenever needed for a multitude of possible reasons. But, for the carving skier who wishes to improve upon their carving technique whenever and wherever possible, always pushing the envelope of full carve possibilities is the exact challenge to our facilities that we need to develop that skill further. As the accumulative scales of slope pitch, surface density and available width of corridor fluctuate, the challenge fluctuates with it. I can already skid the entire mountain but, I cannot carve it all. There will always be places where carving is simply not possible, ever. You can call me a technical explorer who aches to carve as far into that scary new place as I can go. When my legs get too tired, the traffic too heavy, the trail too narrow and/or steep and/or hard - factors that push the final equation past a certain level of control, I am happy to tone it down so I can ski another day. Though, the part of me that wishes to improve will never be “happy”. It simply doesn’t want to be. I can enjoy letting myself get a little pissed off when I hit that wall. If there is no conflict in our skiing, we are not getting better.

 

[MarkP]

One should learn to slide on ice because it's going to happen. Might as well get comfortable instead of freaking out. Keep looking for the edge while balanced. You still have to finish the "turn" even if you didn't change direction all that much.

There's always this myth of "Hans" effortlessly carving turns down ice with no skidding. This has been around since the days of straight skis with 45 -65m sidecuts, when carving even on packed powder was only for huge turns at speed or momentary.
Besides the equipment issue, which likely 98% of skiers lack, there's a turn radius issue. Straighten out the turns and it's easier to carve.

Can you traverse across your ice standing on the downhill ski on edge? If not, making a carved turn on it will require some unicorn dust or Hans's ashes.

With California now open for recreational toking, there'll be a lot more ashes around.

 

[JESinstr]

But, for the carving skier who wishes to improve upon their carving technique whenever and wherever possible, always pushing the envelope of full carve possibilities is the exact challenge to our facilities that we need to develop that skill further.

This is why I define carving as "the pursuit of circular travel"

 

[dbostedo]

This is why I define carving as "the pursuit of circular travel"

I once did a "ski the circle" drill with @James at Buttermilk... basically, straight-line a decent pitch onto a flat and try to turn/carve a complete circle. I didn't do very well, but I think James got pretty close.

 

[Smear]

I think I have a severe turn finishing problem when skiing GS gates. I've been skiing for a long time, but have very limited experienc with skiing gates.

When I'm freesking, then I think I'm mostly finishing the turns properly. I'm increasing counter and hip angulation toward the end of the turns, and eventually letting the COM and the skis swap side when entering the next turn. Often flexing and getting aftish in the transition, but the skis travel a longer path and I get forward and inclined for the start of next turn.

But when skiing gates I often I loosen up the turn way to early and then I end up in a horrible backseat position without counter or angulation when i'm supposed to be starting the next turn in the other direction. By just tipping the feet in the new direction from this position I just don't get enough edge angle fast enough (not enough inclination) for the next gate. And getting forward again does not happen on it's own. I end up in the back seat way more often skiing gates than i do freeskiing.

I think I just need to hold on to the turns a bit longer while increasing counter and angulation to get a proper start of the next turn. So easy to say and think, but so hard to do. Apparantly...

When freeskiing i just enjoy the feelings and forces, and play with how long to hold on to the turns, how fast to flex, how much to wind up etc. Not that concerned with where it takes me as long as I'm staying on the groomer and not crashing into stuff.

When skiing gates I get so preocopied with were I'm going that I forget to ski. Or somehow the fear of hitting the gates messes up with my ability to move into counter and angulation.

Video, I know. But I don't have any. I'm actually kind of glad i have never seen this shit on tape. If it looks halfway as bad as it feels than that would be horrible. And it probably looks twice as bad as it feels....

Any hints. tips or useful excersices?

 

[QueueCT]

I ran video with my daughters after their race on Sunday and spent a fair amount of time on a single turn where one daughter finished her turn well which set her up perfectly for the next, critical, gate on the flat. She initiated the turn well above the gate and held her speed. My other daughter rushed, took a more direct line, and made a bit of a mess of it.

If you can get someone to video you and a racer you admire then you can get some great insights. Do it in training so you can run the same set over and over again with different approaches to the turn. And look at the video between runs so you can have instant feedback. Video has to be from the same position/zoom so you can track movements against fixed background points.

 

[Jacques]

As @DoryBreaux posted early on, I was always under the impression that "finishing your turns" meant continuing the arc up the hill, thus slowing yourself down using gravity. It never made much sense to me, in that regard - outside of a drill, I've never noticed a really great skier, looked at their tracks, and seen them go back up the hill. Maybe I'm missing something.

Do it all the time. Thing is one needs a piste wide enough vs. the speed and pitch, vs the skis turn radius etc. Steeper pitch needs wide wide piste.

 

[DoryBreaux]

Do it all the time. Thing is one needs a piste wide enough vs. the speed and pitch, vs the skis turn radius etc. Steeper pitch needs wide wide piste.

Or shorter radius turns.

 

[Kneale Brownson]

Sounds like park and ride rather than constantly adjusting for circumstances.

The intent of offensive skiing is to go where you want at the pace you wish to maintain. You "finish" turns to manage that pace efficiently.

 

[Tricia]

Finishing tuns means skiing into neutral.
Practically speaking the transition, where skis are in neutral, is in the middle. So there is equal amounts of your line on each side. Watch most people ski. You'll see they get very far across the middle and suddenly turn. So there's not skiing into neutral, there's abrupt edge change. The transitiion or abrupt edge change is not in the middle but way off to the side. We all tend to default to that I suspect unless conscious of it.
If you have to ski slowly, with young kids etc, this is a very good thing to work on. You can feel it when you ski into neutral.

Neutral: skis are just at the edge angle where they are released. This is not flat when there's pitch though many think of them as flat. Doing a pivot slip you are in neutral.

If you're skiing in a "limited corridor" nothing is different, except if you think about it and cease to turn then you may exceed the limits of said corridor. This is not recommended. Disengage mind or retrain it.

I've been working on this quite a bit lately.
I'm feeling like the finish is where the ski is loaded and you feel that something special before making the transition.

 

[Kneale Brownson]

That something special is the exceedingly brief moment when you are on both feet equally just before you begin to release edges into the new turn.

 

[DoryBreaux]

I've been working on this quite a bit lately.
I'm feeling like the finish is where the ski is loaded and you feel that something special before making the transition.

Keep turning after that, so that you release uphill. Its really fun.

 

[Tricia]

Keep turning after that, so that you release uphill. Its really fun.

Phil was working with me on that at Mammoth. There is a nice little Ah Hah moment.

I like @Bob Barnes medicine ball analogy

 

[SpauldingSmails]

Maybe 'finish' your turn doesn't only mean 'complete' your turn. Today on the lift I was pondering this and I thought that maybe 'finish' your turn means, on a deeper level, to perform the turn with necessary mechanics that define a turn, you perfect a turn by polishing the details. Like putting a finish on a piece of furniture you built...

It is something more arcane and holistic than just completing a turn. It must be, because if you started a new turn you finished the old one. If that is the case (finish one start another) then skiers are just walking about repeating a silly phrase like, "no matter where you go there you are". But since this phrase had been sallied forth into our ski teachings it must mean something more. It is like that misquoted phrase, "Ski the fast line slow". There is actually a full quote much more in depth and not exactly like it sounds.

 

[pchewn]

I like @Bob Barnes medicine ball analogy

"Finishing your turns" statement does nothing for me. But this video about the medicine ball resonates well -- it is a great description of the motion of the skier's body relative to the skis.... very good!

 

[LiquidFeet]

When a ski instructor or trainer tells someone to finish their turns, or complete their turns (same thing), it means one simple thing. That simple thing is essential if that skier is going to control speed through line instead of by braking/bracing/skidding/friction. Learning to complete/finish turns is essential for skill development. Consider it a marker for versatility.

That simple meaning is -- go more uphill before starting each new turn.

That sounds easy, but for skiers who do not typically finish/complete their turns it can be quite the technical challenge. "Degree of turn finish" is a real thing. 90 degrees means you are moving perpendicularly across the fall line before you start the new turn. 100 degrees means you are going uphill before you start a new turn. 45 degrees, well, you're heading diagonally downhill when you start the new turn. 0 degrees is you are heading straight down the fall line without turning. I still remember the sense of fear and insecurity the first few times I tried to start a new turn after getting to 90 degrees... that fear is gone now but it was certainly real when I was a new adult skier.

45 degrees of turn finish is the comfort zone for many skiers - on groomers.

 

[SpauldingSmails]

@LiquidFeet That makes sense and it sounds like we now have two phrases then that mean the same thing...
"Control speed with turn shape"
"Finish your turns"

 

[jack97]

I always thought the two phrases meant the same thing.

 

[Seldomski]

As a student, when I heard 'finish your turns,' it made me brace more heavily against the outside ski and traverse a bit. I think something was lost in translation. I bet I ended up inclining and losing edge angle when doing this, basically accomplishing the opposite of the desired outcome.

I don't remember the other words that followed after that tried to fix this. Just relating my own confusion when first hearing this phrase. I think I understand now what various instructors were talking about.