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Frankly

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Which areas potentially are capable of hosting a modern World Cup downhill?

Or more personally, having skied Sugarloaf and Whiteface DHs going on almost 40 years ago, how do those courses compare? What would need to change to get them up to speed, physically?
 

Rudi Riet

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The biggest thing is homologation, obviously. It's not cheap, and it's tough to get the clearance for a proper DH and SG track due to the needs for A-netting.

As of now, here are the resorts in the east (USA and CAN) that have FIS homologation for downhill:

- Okemo, VT (Chief)
- Sugarloaf, ME (Narrow Gauge)
- Sunday River, ME (T2/Cascades)
- Whiteface, NY (two courses: World Cup DH [i.e. Cloudspin, the 1980 DH course] and Parkway/Thruway/Draper's Drop)

Of these, the only ones that could realistically hold a World Cup would be Sugarloaf and Whiteface (the Cloudspin course), and even then the tracks aren't the most challenging out there. The women may be able to race on said tracks, but the men's tour would likely give these mountains a pass as "too easy."

So that leaves SG as the other option. And here there are more options. There are FIS SG homologations in the following eastern resorts:

- Attitash, NH (Illusion)
- Gore Mountain, NY (Echo)
- Cannon/Mittersill, NH (Baron's Run)
- Mont Édouard, PQ (Desjardins)
- Okemo, VT (Chief)
- Stowe, VT (Main Street)
- Sugarbush/Lincoln Peak, VT (Snowball to Spring Fling)
- Sugarloaf, ME (Narrow Gauge)
- Sunday River, ME (T2/Monday Mourning)
- Waterville Valley, NH (White Caps/Sel's Choice/World Cup T-Bar)
- Whiteface, NY (World Cup/Skyward and Upper Thurway-Draper's Drop)

Of these, the ones that are most World Cup in caliber are Cannon/Mittersill (which was designed as a USST training hill and has a lot of terrain), Sugarloaf, and Whiteface (the Skyward course, not the Thurway/Draper's course). The others have FIS homologation for lower-level competition.

The biggest hindrance to either Sugarloaf or Whiteface hosting World Cup events is their remote locations. They aren't close to many, if any, major population centers or transportation gateways. The closest major city to either one is Montreal, and even then it's via non-highways for the majority of the trip, In terms of logistics, this is a royal pain.

Cannon/Mittersill stands a better chance. Boston is only a 2.5 hours away (Montreal and NYC are 3.5 and 5.5 hours away, respectively), and the resort is on a major highway (I-93), making transport to and from fairly simple. And the race trails at Mittersill are modern and tough, be it for SG, GS, or SL.

Of note is how many eastern Canadian venues have allowed their FIS speed homologations to lapse. Le Massif, PQ, was originally the alpine skiing venue for Quebec City's two Olympic bids, and now the DH/SG track is all but abandoned. Mont Tremblant and Mont Ste. Anne are now just GS and SL. And if you're doing just tech events, Killington has set a high bar.
 

S.H.

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The biggest thing is homologation, obviously. It's not cheap, and it's tough to get the clearance for a proper DH and SG track due to the needs for A-netting.

As of now, here are the resorts in the east (USA and CAN) that have FIS homologation for downhill:

- Okemo, VT (Chief)
- Sugarloaf, ME (Narrow Gauge)
- Sunday River, ME (T2/Cascades)
- Whiteface, NY (two courses: World Cup DH [i.e. Cloudspin, the 1980 DH course] and Parkway/Thruway/Draper's Drop)

Of these, the only ones that could realistically hold a World Cup would be Sugarloaf and Whiteface (the Cloudspin course), and even then the tracks aren't the most challenging out there. The women may be able to race on said tracks, but the men's tour would likely give these mountains a pass as "too easy."

So that leaves SG as the other option. And here there are more options. There are FIS SG homologations in the following eastern resorts:

- Attitash, NH (Illusion)
- Gore Mountain, NY (Echo)
- Cannon/Mittersill, NH (Baron's Run)
- Mont Édouard, PQ (Desjardins)
- Okemo, VT (Chief)
- Stowe, VT (Main Street)
- Sugarbush/Lincoln Peak, VT (Snowball to Spring Fling)
- Sugarloaf, ME (Narrow Gauge)
- Sunday River, ME (T2/Monday Mourning)
- Waterville Valley, NH (White Caps/Sel's Choice/World Cup T-Bar)
- Whiteface, NY (World Cup/Skyward and Upper Thurway-Draper's Drop)

Of these, the ones that are most World Cup in caliber are Cannon/Mittersill (which was designed as a USST training hill and has a lot of terrain), Sugarloaf, and Whiteface (the Skyward course, not the Thurway/Draper's course). The others have FIS homologation for lower-level competition.

The biggest hindrance to either Sugarloaf or Whiteface hosting World Cup events is their remote locations. They aren't close to many, if any, major population centers or transportation gateways. The closest major city to either one is Montreal, and even then it's via non-highways for the majority of the trip, In terms of logistics, this is a royal pain.

Cannon/Mittersill stands a better chance. Boston is only a 2.5 hours away (Montreal and NYC are 3.5 and 5.5 hours away, respectively), and the resort is on a major highway (I-93), making transport to and from fairly simple. And the race trails at Mittersill are modern and tough, be it for SG, GS, or SL.

Of note is how many eastern Canadian venues have allowed their FIS speed homologations to lapse. Le Massif, PQ, was originally the alpine skiing venue for Quebec City's two Olympic bids, and now the DH/SG track is all but abandoned. Mont Tremblant and Mont Ste. Anne are now just GS and SL. And if you're doing just tech events, Killington has set a high bar.

For completeness, Burke has an SG homologation as well (but not WC worthy, IMO)
 

KevinF

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@Rudi Riet , thanks for the detailed info. What makes a course SG "homologated"?

You said above that Stowe has Main Street which is their regular race hill, but for instance, they also have Hayride which is far longer, just as wide and steeper to boot. There have to be other trails around that fit the "long, steep, and wide" category other then the ones you listed above.
 

hbear

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Effectively it's a certification system. Does cost some money so unless one is hosting events that require, it doesn't make sense to do it.
 

Rudi Riet

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@Rudi Riet , thanks for the detailed info. What makes a course SG "homologated"?

You said above that Stowe has Main Street which is their regular race hill, but for instance, they also have Hayride which is far longer, just as wide and steeper to boot. There have to be other trails around that fit the "long, steep, and wide" category other then the ones you listed above.

The FIS homologation process involves having a certified FIS inspector review a race trail with a fine-toothed comb. Each course must meet certain criteria, including:

- vertical drop
- length
- width of trail (most speed venues have a minimum acceptable width of 40 meters)
- presence of permanent safety fixtures (i.e. A-nets)
- location of timing equipment
- other considerations (e.g. sight lines)

The USSSA process is similar, though not as stringent. That said, every USSSA race is required to take place on a homologated race trail. And each homologation has a fee associated with it. So many areas and/or clubs decide to focus on a single race trail, as the installation of A-nets (required for most speed venues) isn't a trivial expense.

The double-issue with FIS is there are not many certified homologation officials in North America, so the process to either gain new trail certification or renew existing certification is a bit fraught. Given this additional complexity (as well as rules adjustments for new safety regulations), it means that a decent number of courses fall off the homologation list each year.

I'd imagine that Stowe simply decided to concentrate on making Main Street the venue of choice for the mountain. Its proximity to the MMSC building (and its timing equipment) certainly helps.
 

KevinF

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@Rudi Riet , thanks for the great explanation. Yes, Main Street pretty much always has the safety netting put up, which I figured is a royal PITA to take down / put up in the aftermath of powder days.

I should have figured that $$$ factored heavily into the equation as well...
 

Erik Timmerman

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They have looked at having Hayride homologated and it is a great SL and GS hill, but to use it for Super-G they'd have to start high enough that Lord would effectively be closed and finish low enough that they'd have to close Crossover too, so basically running a Super-G there would close the whole mountain.
 

KevinF

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They have looked at having Hayride homologated and it is a great SL and GS hill, but to use it for Super-G they'd have to start high enough that Lord would effectively be closed and finish low enough that they'd have to close Crossover too, so basically running a Super-G there would close the whole mountain.

Do Main Street SG's start above the usual split between Main Street Race and Main Street Tourists?

I was thinking Hayride had more vertical all by itself then the Sensation chair does, but now that I think about it, maybe not...
 

Muleski

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There are two factors that come into play here, realistically. And this is well below the WC level. Think about FIS level races,and a step above that, NorAms. One is having the hill. The second is being willing to host a race, get it on the calendar and actually run it well.

When our youngest stopped racing DH, which was about eight years ago, there were still a number of mountains and clubs in the East that would and could host DH races, or "speed weeks". There is ONE club and mountain that has hosted DH races over I believe the past four seasons: Sugarloaf/CVA. They have hosted the races that serve as US Nationals {DH is no longer raced at the full event US Nationals.....Because it cuts out those who will host}. NorAm finals, a FIS speed week. Sugarloaf has NO DH's on the FIS calendar this season.

There are no FIS level or above DH's in the East. I believe that the last time Whiteface hosted a FIS DH was in about 2005, when the Eastern men's Championships were there. Okemo hosted FIS DH's on Chief for a few years, and has stopped. There has not been a FIS level, let alone a NorAM level DH held else where that I can think of in more than a decade. There has been a similar pull back in the West. This year Aspen will host two series, Bachelor, Copper, and Schweitzer will each host one.
The Copper series are NorAm's and will serve as our National DH champs.

Going through the process to have a trail FIS homologated is one thing. Various clubs and academies do it, and some NEVER race on them. Sort of a marketing thing for some, I guess. There are plenty of homologated hills in the East that I would wager will not host a FIS race in any discipline.

These year there are an additional eight venues in the country who will host FIS level SG races. Not many. Gore & Whiteface, Burke, Sugarloaf, Attitash/Cranmore in the East. Snowbasin, Alpine Meadows, Sun Valley, and I think Mammoth in the West. I may be missing one, but the theme is NOT many speed races, and not a lot of interest in hosting them.

Having a DH trail, all set up, ready to train and race takes a great deal of manpower, equipment and expense. They require volunteers, and if he real costs are accurately accounted for, can cost and easy $100K to run. That's for a domestic FIS series.

Not to be a downer. We're probably not going to see a WC SG race in the East, for many of the reasons others have mentioned. Location, foremost. despite the crowd potential {which is nowhere near as high as the events at Kilington have drawn}. Just do not see it happening. They need to also take place in the US in the early season {Beaver Creek} or end of the season {WCF at Aspen last season}. Low elevation in the East in problematic.

DH.....no chance. Neither Whiteface {which I would say will never host a DH at all} not Sugarloaf has enough of a hill for a real WC men's race. Even if there was a solid organizing committee begging to host, I don't see FIS awarding one.

Not much interest in running speed races, particularly DH, which really saddens me.

Unless I am way off the mark, no more racing at Stowe on Hayride. Our some races some awesome Eastern Cup FIS GS's on the trail, maybe 12 plus years ago. I also don't think MMSC is interesting in hosting a SG. Main Street is a great men's GS trail. Not a SG track, IMO. Agree that the setup with Main Street and the MMSC clubhouse is really nice.

Huge difference between a kids' USSSA SG and an Eastern Cup or NorAM. You need length and width, etc. as well as the "right" terrain.
 
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Erik Timmerman

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Do Main Street SG's start above the usual split between Main Street Race and Main Street Tourists?

I was thinking Hayride had more vertical all by itself then the Sensation chair does, but now that I think about it, maybe not...

For a big SG they bring the start way up. Almost to the top.
 

Muleski

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Don't you need 2500 (or 2800) feet of continuous vertical to at least be considered?

Yep....at a minimum 800M to 1100M for men's DH. 450M to 800M for womens {though they all tend to be pushing 800M}.

And in today's world, a opposed to the 1960's, it's got to be very legit. Just to many places to hold them. Fewer that want to,

That's before the risk managers weigh in........
 

Erik Timmerman

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As far as a place like Stowe is concerned, I just don't see how logistically they could ever handle a crowd like Killington had over near Main Street. I think it could be done on Hayride, but even then it would be a total pain and people would have to walk up to the venue from the base area or ski down to it. I'm talking about a Men's GS not a SG, I think that would be a non-starter around here. We hear talk of a WC race, I'm sure that we could handle the on course stuff, but the logistics of what they did at Killington.... I don't see it. All of the temporary buildings, TV trailers, grandstands, etc. you could maybe fit that in and around the Hayride finish and maybe you could get the people in and out, but why would you want to? So you could lose half a million dollars?
 

Muleski

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Keep in mind that Stowe is VR, and a "sister" to Beaver Creek. I don't see it happening. VR already hosts "The Opening" and it's a HUGE event.

I was just thinking of Main Street. I know that the last time they ran a men's FIS SG, they worked hard to get it to be just over a minute in length, with is to be honest, long enough to be considered a valid race, but really too short to get anybody very excited about it. So, probably not going to see a NorAm.

It's a great trail. Shows how hard it is to have the right trail for speed. Then think about the cost of about six miles of B-netting for the SG.

Just hard. I'm perplexed by the conversation of Hayride. I thought that was done, and done as a race trail. It was surely unpopular when races like the UVM carnival were moved over to Main Street......until people started racing it. Great hill.
 

Brian Finch

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Having run Master’s & ASRA Speed events semi recently at Okemo, White Face & Sugarbush, a large barrier is racer interest & proximity.

Oddly, folks just won’t drive 1 hour north of Killington to SB & forget about WF. Okemo has the best shot to compete for limelight, yet again it fails to draw the numbers.
 

Erik Timmerman

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I'm sure Hayride is done, but can you imagine trying to jam all of the stuff that Killington had for the WC into the area between the Club and the Main Street finish? And then to get 16,000 people in and out? I don't think it could be done. I think if you really wanted to have a race that size in Stowe you'd have to at least consider using Hayride. I don't think it would ever happen.
 

hbear

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At Lake Louise we host some great WC speed events. Long history, hill supports it and great for all the junior racers to get up close to their heroes.

However to be honest the crowd is sparse (non existent compared to Europe) and the greater general public just isn’t interested much. (E.g. It’s not a big draw for crowds as a whole, but there is some cache for those that follow Alpine to travel here to “ski” the course long after the nets are down...but those are the hardcore race fans). Most people on race weekends wonder what’s going on and are usually surprised parts of the hill are closed because of the race.

Overall I’d say because it’s early in the ski season here no big deal, doubtful the hill would be as keen to host in say February even if the schedule allowed.

I must say it’s AWESOME for the juniors, to get within arms length of the WC racers is amazing....no way that happens over in Europe.
 

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