• For more information on how to avoid pop-up ads and still support SkiTalk click HERE.

Volvo phasing out gas engines

scott43

So much better than a pro
Skier
Joined
Nov 12, 2015
Posts
13,549
Location
Great White North
Well I'd say phasing out vehicles that have only ICE power. But yeah, point taken, fairly bold if you look at the numbers.
 

crgildart

Gravity Slave
Skier
Joined
Nov 12, 2015
Posts
16,325
Location
The Bull City
We're closer than many think to phasing out human driven vehicles. The car companies are already starting to reduce output and retool their plants to do just that. It's not all bad in terms of transportation jobs outlook. Instead of driving one Uber or one truck folks who invest wisely could manage several vehicles bringing in revenues at the same time.
 

LKLA

Out on the slopes
Skier
Joined
Apr 24, 2017
Posts
1,428
Seems like a marketing pitch more than a practical/realistic idea.

Since Volvo is owned by a Chinese company, I think this is geared towards the Chinese market. E vehicles sales in China are surging. Bad news is that China gets 70% of its electricity from coal.

Still not sure what to make of electric cars. A Tesla weighs three tons, meaning it takes thousands of pounds of batteries to equal the energy of 15 gallons - about 80 pounds - of gasoline. Highly inefficient. And electric cars actually use as much if not more CO2 when the production of batteries is figured into the equation, and batteries only last @ 4-5 years. Not to mention that the entire US electric grid would have to change in order to support this.

Either way Tesla stock will go up :rolleyes:
 
Last edited:

RachelV

I run TheSkiDiva.com and work at OpenSnow.
Ski Diva Tester
Joined
Nov 8, 2015
Posts
607
Location
Boulder, CO
.... Bad news is that China gets 70% of its electricity from coal. ...

That is a bummer, but even in grids that have tons of coal, electric vehicles produce about the same amount of emissions as gas-powered cars. The term to google here is "long tailpipe theory". So even with China's dirty grid, emissions work out about even with 30mpg cars:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_long_tailpipe#Carbon_footprint_in_selected_countries

... A Tesla weighs three tons, meaning it takes thousands of pounds of batteries to equal the energy of 15 gallons - about 80 pounds - of gasoline. Highly inefficient. ...

Huh, do people measure efficiency based on weight of fuel sources? It's true that for a given volume of gas it's super energy dense, but less than a third of that energy actually moves your car forward; the rest is lost to heat etc. Electric cars turn over 75% of the energy in their batteries into forward motion, so it's definitely more complicated than just comparing the weights:
https://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/atv.shtml

Not saying electric cars don't have a ways to go before they've got a shot at being mainstream, but they're improving incredibly quickly and I'm pretty psyched to see where things go over the next few years.
 

Don in Morrison

I Ski Better on Retro Day
Skier
Joined
Nov 13, 2015
Posts
1,418
Location
Morrison, Colorado
I will buy an electric car when, and only when:

I can buy a used one with 50k miles for the same price I paid for my last car with 50k miles.
A five minute charge on a nearly dead battery will go 500 miles on the Interstate.
The battery can withstand a 3-5 minute charge every 200-400 miles for the life of the car. (300k miles or so)
Taxes to pay for roads are collected at the charging station when you charge the car, and not at the DMV once a year.
The car will go 300 miles, fully loaded, at night with the headlights on, in 20° weather.

As things currently stand, I think that means never.
 

LKLA

Out on the slopes
Skier
Joined
Apr 24, 2017
Posts
1,428
Actually, Tesla is down about 6% this morning..they're talking plateau of Model X and S demand. Sales actually fell Q2 despite having inventory on hand.

That was a joke!

Even on the back of the 15%+ drop today (which has little or nothing to do with the news out of Volvo), Tesla stock is still significantly over-priced. This time last year, the stock was trading at $215, today it's at $335 (after the 15% drop). That is a 56% return - based on little but hype.
 

LKLA

Out on the slopes
Skier
Joined
Apr 24, 2017
Posts
1,428
That is a bummer, but even in grids that have tons of coal, electric vehicles produce about the same amount of emissions as gas-powered cars. The term to google here is "long tailpipe theory". So even with China's dirty grid, emissions work out about even with 30mpg cars:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_long_tailpipe#Carbon_footprint_in_selected_countries



Huh, do people measure efficiency based on weight of fuel sources? It's true that for a given volume of gas it's super energy dense, but less than a third of that energy actually moves your car forward; the rest is lost to heat etc. Electric cars turn over 75% of the energy in their batteries into forward motion, so it's definitely more complicated than just comparing the weights:
https://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/atv.shtml

Not saying electric cars don't have a ways to go before they've got a shot at being mainstream, but they're improving incredibly quickly and I'm pretty psyched to see where things go over the next few years.


Actually weight is indeed a measure of efficiency or lack of. The heavier the vehicle is, the more energy it needs to get moving regardless of energy source. But beyond that, weight is also a factor in the wear and tear of many parts of a car such as the brakes, tires and suspension. A three ton car will require bigger tires and require that they are replaced more often. A heavier car is likely not a more eco-friendly car.

The main issues though seems to be the means by which the electricity is generated to begin with (largely fossil fuels) and the difficulty in safely disposing of the batteries (my understanding is that they are indestructible). Tesla uses lithium-ion batteries so as hundreds of thousands more of these batteries hit the market, the problems that come with lithium mining, battery life cycles and recycling loom large. The EPA recently concluded that batteries using nickel and cobalt, like lithium-ion batteries, have the “highest potential for environmental impacts”.
 

RachelV

I run TheSkiDiva.com and work at OpenSnow.
Ski Diva Tester
Joined
Nov 8, 2015
Posts
607
Location
Boulder, CO
Well, yeah, I know that heavier things take more energy to move. :) I just thought the "batteries are heavier than gas, so they're less efficient" phrasing was weird, and was curious to know more about the thoughts the behind that. What do we mean by efficiency? It's true that heavier cars wear our parts slightly quicker, but electric cars have way fewer parts to wear out overall, and you avoid things like oil changes entirely. And it's true that electric cars produce higher emissions during manufacture and at end of life due to creating and then disposing of the battery, but over the life of the car you more than make that up.

http://www.ucsusa.org/publications/...vehicles-just-how-green-are-they#.WV2O3tPys_U

I mean, every huge industry has negative externalities. The question is more like figuring out which technology is less bad: electric cars or gas cars. I personally think that electric cars are going to get way, way less bad than gas cars in the medium term future. On top of that, electric motors are fuuuuuuun (even in a hilariously underpowered car like a Nissan Leaf you can briefly out-accelerate way faster cars), and I think that once battery technology catches up a bit people are genuinely going to prefer the feel of electric motors for driving, but now we're clearly getting into my opinions. :)

Anyways, I think it's weird that people can be so pessimistic about electric cars. I feel like Space X / Blue Origin / etc have shown that once private companies get involved, technologies can progress incredibly fast. I'm not saying electric cars are the best thing ever right now, but man, there's so much cool stuff that a cleaner, more distributed grid backed by more efficient batteries is going to enable that I don't see how you can not be excited by what the next ~20 years are going to bring. I'm glad Volvo is throwing their hat in the ring and helping move things along.
 

Philpug

Notorious P.U.G.
Admin
SkiTalk Tester
Joined
Nov 1, 2015
Posts
42,624
Location
Reno, eNVy
I will buy an electric car when, and only when:

I can buy a used one with 50k miles for the same price I paid for my last car with 50k miles.
A five minute charge on a nearly dead battery will go 500 miles on the Interstate.
The battery can withstand a 3-5 minute charge every 200-400 miles for the life of the car. (300k miles or so)
Taxes to pay for roads are collected at the charging station when you charge the car, and not at the DMV once a year.
The car will go 300 miles, fully loaded, at night with the headlights on, in 20° weather.

As things currently stand, I think that means never.
I hear what you are saying but you also need to be a bit realistic. You are not going to find comparable requirements in a gas driven vehicle either.
 

Don in Morrison

I Ski Better on Retro Day
Skier
Joined
Nov 13, 2015
Posts
1,418
Location
Morrison, Colorado
I hear what you are saying but you also need to be a bit realistic. You are not going to find comparable requirements in a gas driven vehicle either.
'Cept for the 500 mile non-stop, I've done all of those things with the different cars I've owned. It takes about 5 minutes to fill an empty tank on my Caravan (20 gal). Several of my most recent cars could go 500 miles on a tank of gas if I had to, but I usually refill before 300 miles. I've done the trip from Boise to Ogden at night in mid-winter, while it was snowing, with the whole family aboard. And I pay for the roads every time I fill up, which the current charging infrastructure isn't set up to do. So I'm not asking the electric to do anything that I haven't already done with my other cars.

I could live with 300 mile recharge range, but it would have to be able to actually do it without worrying about "Am I going to make it to the next charging station?" The 5 minute charging time and paying the road tax at the charging station instead of at the DMV are non-negotiable for me, because that 's how everything works with my gas cars.
 

Dave Marshak

All Time World Champion
Skier
Joined
Nov 17, 2015
Posts
1,454
I will buy an electric car when, and only when:

I can buy a used one with 50k miles ...

As things currently stand, I think that means never.
Never say never. Battery technology is always improving, and charging infrastructure will follow as more electric cars hit the road. The Chinese may decide that electric is the way to go, then electrics will be as cheap or cheaper than gasoline cars.
That said, skiers will be the last to use electric cars because of the cold weather range and infrastructure issues.

dm
 

Dave Marshak

All Time World Champion
Skier
Joined
Nov 17, 2015
Posts
1,454
Just wait until it all goes autonomous. Everyone will forget how to drive, and you will need an A in defensive driving before you can apply for a driver's license, if anyone is even allowed to drive. No more getting up early to beat the plows to the ski area on powder days either. It's gonna suck.

dm
 

scott43

So much better than a pro
Skier
Joined
Nov 12, 2015
Posts
13,549
Location
Great White North
Anyways, I think it's weird that people can be so pessimistic about electric cars. I feel like Space X / Blue Origin / etc have shown that once private companies get involved, technologies can progress incredibly fast. I'm not saying electric cars are the best thing ever right now, but man, there's so much cool stuff that a cleaner, more distributed grid backed by more efficient batteries is going to enable that I don't see how you can not be excited by what the next ~20 years are going to bring. I'm glad Volvo is throwing their hat in the ring and helping move things along.

I don't know that it's pessimism really. There are certain economic rules that are generally true with this type of thing. I don't think anyone would give a crap if their car were electric or gas if you could fill/charge it in 5 mins, it went 500 miles and it cost $20k.
 

bbinder

Making fresh tracks
Skier
SkiTalk Supporter
Joined
Nov 12, 2015
Posts
2,224
Location
Massachusetts
I guess that I will need to buy my high performance gas guzzling monsters while I still can. What do I need to do to offset that carbon footprint?
 

Philpug

Notorious P.U.G.
Admin
SkiTalk Tester
Joined
Nov 1, 2015
Posts
42,624
Location
Reno, eNVy
I guess that I will need to buy my high performance gas guzzling monsters while I still can. What do I need to do to offset that carbon footprint?
High performance? Electric and hybrid motors are already lapping the gas guzzlers. I am actually excited to see what the possiblities are with these motors. With Tesla sedans already doing 0-60 in 2.28 sec...just wow.
 

scott43

So much better than a pro
Skier
Joined
Nov 12, 2015
Posts
13,549
Location
Great White North
If you look at it for a moment without the Tesla goggles on, most families are two car families. I would suspect that a very large portion of those families could sacrifice one car to go electric. Even very basic electric cars have an 80 or 100 mile range, enough for their daily use. So look at something like the Nissan Leaf. I did. You're paying $37k for what is basically a Versa with some upgrades. Versa is $16k. So what's the payoff time for that? About 10 years. If it were at par, no brainer. With a 4 year payoff, I'd do it more than like. 10 year? That's a bit tougher. But never mind me. Leaf sales peaked at 25k units and have declined. There just isn't the buy-in yet. I'll revisit this in 5 years probably. Hopefully the costs have come down..or gas has gone up!
 

Sponsor

Staff online

Top