Utah Thoughts on Snowbasin's upgraded wildcat lift

[tromano]

The upgrades to Wildcat lift at Snowbasin are on going. In addition to upgrading the old wildcat triple which seldom ran to a highspeed six pack, they are adding additional snowmaking to wildcat bowl.
https://www.snowbasin.com/blog/wildcat-express-construction-update

The needles gondola has been by far the most busy lift at snowbasin and its not uncommon to see long lines there during mid-season weekends. For skiers that remain on the front-side, you are funneled onto bear hollow or city hill trails. These trails were typically the most congested on the mountain and snow conditions there suffered especially during races / events that were usually held on city hill. Few people took the long in places uphill traverse to wildcat bowl. Wildcat bowl is actually one of the funnest cruisers on the mountain and is certainly the best such pitch on the front-side of the resort. There is also historically good mogul runs like becks that recently don't get enough traffic to form good moguls. There are also some fun powder / corn snow shots like Centennial and beaver slide as well as some tree shots which don't see much skier traffic either.

I think this new 6 pack will thin the crowds on the needles lift. This will reduce some traffic from both bear hollow and city hill trails, hopefully improving the scraped off chunder snow conditions. Also the more aggressive intermediates will be less prevalent on bear hollow and give the beginners more elbow room. Hopefully the moguls will develop more consistently on becks and centennial.

Snowbasin frequently gets very foggy up high when disorganized cold fronts move through. The fog typically lets up just around the top of where the wildcat lift is. Having a good lift lower down that is actually running will almost certainly help during these foggy midweek days.

 

[JohnL]

In the 20 or so times I've skied Snowbasin, I think Wildcat was open maybe once or twice.

Tangent: how often have you skied No Name? Primary gates and beyond.

 

[JohnL]

We skied Beaver Slide a few times during the April fog Out?

IIRC, Centennial face has some rough sun exposure?

3 Skis and Becks are nice runs on the other side of the ridge.

 

[JohnL]

Terrain question in case I need to guide at gathering. What was the low angle pow field we skied with the group? From Strawberry Travese to Penny Lane. Was it Sunshine Bowl?

 

[tromano]

@JohnL I haven't ski the tram a ton. Maybe 10-15 days the last couple years. Its worth hitting on a powder day and also midwinter when it gets wind-buff or chalks up. In the spring it can be hit or miss over there. The lines are pretty tall so if its good up high its usually pretty sloppy / rotten down low.

I think we did to beaver slide together a few times last year. Centennial is south east facing so its good midwinter and corns up early in the spring.

Sunshine bowl is good powder skiing, its a bit steeper for like the first 6 turns at the top and the bottom narrows significantly and turns into a mogul field. You can traverse out to the left and ski another open shot in the trees.

The diamond is a much nicer choice for intermediates with more wide open slopes on like a ENE and SE aspects. Consistent pitch and not too much for the intermediate in good snow conditions. The further you traverse the easier it gets.

 

[tch]

Interesting.... the 4 times I've been at SB, Wildcat has not been running, so I have no thoughts about how upgrading it will affect traffic. BUT, we hit the area on a spring snow day 3 years ago, and did a number of runs off the Middle Bowl lift. Slow, and no one on it -- but lots of fresh as a result. I'm beginning to appreciate the slower lifts that keep people from using them.

 

[tromano]

Interesting.... the 4 times I've been at SB, Wildcat has not been running, so I have no thoughts about how upgrading it will affect traffic. BUT, we hit the area on a spring snow day 3 years ago, and did a number of runs off the Middle Bowl lift. Slow, and no one on it -- but lots of fresh as a result. I'm beginning to appreciate the slower lifts that keep people from using them.

Wildcat basically never ran aside from the holidays the last few years. Middle bowl, Becker and porky will hopefully still be running regularly too.

 

[Philpug]

Does someone have a map to show how this actually will layout or look?

 

[Tony]

"will follow the same path" according to https://www.snowbasin.com/blog/snow...-high-speed-wildcat-chairlift-for-2017-2018-s

 

[David Chaus]

Hmmmm....that means one would have to take Little Cat to get to Wildcat, as an alternative to the Needles gondola. Too bad they couldn’t re-align and have it load nearer to the base lodge, but at least Little Cat is pretty short. One could take Little Cat/Wildcat/Middle Bowl to get to Strawberry if the line at the Needles gondola was backed up on a busy day, in addition to Little Cat/Becker.

 

[New2]

I definitely think it'll help ease congestion on Needles. And it might somewhat reduce the crowding and snow-chopping on Bear Hollow, City Hill, and upper Sweet Revenge--although on busy days I'd expect Needles to still be at capacity/have lines (shorter lines, at least), which would mean just as much traffic on those runs. For fans of steepish runs, it's a mixed bag... easier access to the top-notch terrain under Wildcat will mean those runs get more traffic and are likely a bit less enjoyable... but on the other hand, they're easier to access and anyone skiing those is not going to be skiing other terrain at the same time, so everywhere on the mountain should see at least a little benefit. And one thing Snowbasin definitely has in abundance is steep, fun runs.

I expect that the new Wildcat lift will be most beneficial/see the most traffic increase from three groups...

• Beginners/ski school: Snowbasin's beginner offerings will still be pretty limited, but for those who want to venture beyond Little Cat, Eas-A-Long is a nicer green run than Slo Road, and the quicker access will be an added selling point. Downside--all those beginners are still going to end up on Bear Hollow, though at least they'll join a bit lower down.
• Timid intermediates: I'm consistently impressed at how many people at Snowbasin pretty much stick to the traverses (Strawberry Traverse to Porky Traverse to Middle Bowl Traverse to Boardwalk to Herberts to Bear Hollow). Maybe occasionally some of the Porcupine terrain, or Main Street if they're feeling adventurous. Snowbasin isn't really a great resort for lower intermediates, but they show up nonetheless... I think they'll groom Beaver Slide and/or Sunnyside more regularly to encourage this group to spend time on Wildcat instead of the gondola. This group will benefit even more from the new Strawberry Chair whenever it goes in--they can skip the uncomfortable ridge and switchbacks, and start exploring more of the Strawberry side.
• Park fans: Blue Grouse is the biggest and most extensive terrain park at Snowbasin right now, and when Wildcat isn't running (most of the time in recent years, as mentioned), the only access is via crowded traverses that are particularly rough on snowboarders. I haven't yet heard what Snowbasin plans to do about parks... not sure whether they've even decided yet. If they keep the parks as-is (Sweet Revenge, Blue Grouse, Orson's), then the relative efficiency of the Needles vs. Wildcat will mostly depend on whether they open up a section to leave the Orson's park and head back to the Wildcat lift base. My memory is that this has been roped off in the past, but there aren't trees or any physical barriers to prevent it. If park fans can lap Blue Grouse and Orson's while riding Wildcat, it becomes a big draw.
  They could also remove the parks from Sweet Revenge and/or Orson's if they want to further encourage riders away from Needles. The problem then becomes where to put the parks (they don't want to drive away their park-riding visitors). Bash seems like the best bet to me... note that no one's mentioned it as a favorite run, so it wouldn't necessarily cause too much consternation; it's not as steep as the other black runs; and it's isolated enough that you can rope off big sections for a park. They could also potentially open up the service road from the bottom of the Porcupine chair to provide access to both Blue Grouse and most of Bash in the same run. The big problem I see is that the current set of improvements approved by the Forest Service doesn't include snowmaking expansion for Bash or that service road (Wildcat Bowl, Eas-A-Long, Herberts, Stewart's, Stein's, and Blue Grouse are getting snowmaking improvements).

 

[AmyPJ]

Hmmmm....that means one would have to take Little Cat to get to Wildcat, as an alternative to the Needles gondola. Too bad they couldn’t re-align and have it load nearer to the base lodge, but at least Little Cat is pretty short. One could take Little Cat/Wildcat/Middle Bowl to get to Strawberry if the line at the Needles gondola was backed up on a busy day, in addition to Little Cat/Becker.

Yep, I've been wondering about this decision all along. I hiked up under the chair yesterday (with snow on the ground!) and had a few other thoughts, some which relate to the terrain parks. The terrain park on Orson's should be moved. Period. That is PRIME runout terrain for the upper mountain, easy to pop over to from Wildcat bowl on the cat track, and a prime pitch for low intermediates who are wanting to venture into a bit steeper terrain without the intimidation of riding all the way to the top. I helped a lot of newbies to the mountain or newer skiers down from Needles last year because they got all the way up there and got really scared, whether due to challenging snow conditions, or challenging visibility, or both. Becker is the only other option to venture into more challenging terrain from near the base, and it's a wicked long, cold ride in bad weather. It also funnels those same skiers onto Bear Hollow, which can be terrifying for them when it's busy (which it always is on weekends. It's SCARY.)

Another reason to move Orson's? That little bit of woods between it and Showboat (now the base of Wildcat chair) would be a prime spot to put in a fun zone for kids, like what Grand Targhee has.

 

[tromano]

I think they could move the park so it's lapable off a single lift ride. The park at the bottom of orson's funnels you back to needles, not to wildcat without riding little cat first.

@AmyPJ Also willow trail should be used by lower intermeds from Becker to avoid the crowds on bear hollow.

My little girl has just completed her green achievements last march and is ready to start on blue skills this fall. She started going off of needles last Feb with the Ski school. They skied a trail called "miss piggy" it's her favoraite. I took that to mean the easy path marked on the trail maps. I took G on that easy path a few times last year - apparently we didn't ski "miss piggy" according to her. But she was confident following me and my conclusion is that Beginners can ski from the gondie with proper route finding and a person to guide em. I personally think they need better signage for the easiest way down.

 

[AmyPJ]

I think they could move the park so it's lapable off a single lift ride. The park at the bottom of orson's funnels you back to needles, not to wildcat without riding little cat first.

@AmyPJ Also willow trail should be used by lower intermeds from Becker to avoid the crowds on bear hollow.

My little girl has just completed her green achievements last march and is ready to start on blue skills this fall. She started going off of needles last Feb with the Ski school. They skied a trail called "miss piggy" it's her favoraite. I took that to mean the easy path marked on the trail maps. I took G on that easy path a few times last year - apparently we didn't ski "miss piggy" according to her. But she was confident following me and my conclusion is that Beginners can ski from the gondie with proper route finding and a person to guide em. I personally think they need better signage for the easiest way down.

Willow is pretty steep for a tentative intermediate. It would have scared the crap out of me as a lower intermediate. It's a fun one, though!

I love Ms. Piggy, too LOL. It's the traverse that runs under Middle Bowl chair.
The caveat to the bolded above is people get up there against their will, who lack the confidence (remember that fear thing? I understand getting up something like that and being scared, just because you don't trust those you are with, or you don't trust your skills, or both.) Or, snow conditions and light conditions are such that it's much more challenging. Kids can get down it because kids are typically pretty fearless. If someone with a pretty big sense of fear gets taken up there, it can be very intimidating AND a VERY long way down. I helped a fairly beginner young adult gal last season, who was with her boyfriend (how many times have we heard this story?) It was snowing. The visibility wasn't horrible, but it was definitely a factor. The snow was very nice, but to her, it was terrifying. She fell and fell and fell and fell, even in Bear Hollow. I waited patiently and did what I could to encourage her. She was EXHAUSTED. I offered to call patrol, but she refused.

Wish the meadow where the tubing hill used to be would be turned into a terrain park, complete with a rope tow.

 

[tromano]

Willow is not that steep and its open and has a nice run out. Steepness is just one thing that makes a trail scary.

I think the new wildcat lift will appeal to the skier you mention as it will open up the middle part of the frontside more and give them more green and un-intimidating? shorter blue paths down the hill that are serviced by a lift that actually runs.

 

[4ster]

I posted in a few threads last year on epicski about Wildcat & my thoughts on its impact. I'll preface by saying that increasing lift capacity without adding terrain is never a good idea, it only adds to on hill congestion & safety issues. For me personally the new lift means no more high speed, wall to wall GS turns down one of natures biggest & best halfpipes. Stewart's was the beginning of the end for that though. This fact alone reduces the value of my days sliding experience. No big deal, as Snowbasin is a big mountain & I spend most of my time on other parts but the Wildcat area was a nice standby.

It's a done deal so I've been trying to figure out the positives. Having a quick lift below the fog line is one, hmm... & that's about it . Maybe it puts a few less people on JP (not that it was ever a real problem) & in Strawberry. On those few days that Needles had a 10 or 12 minute wait it may help a little but more likely it will just clog up Little Cat & make life more difficult for the real beginners.

The only way it will keep traffic from getting thicker in Bear/Scare Hollow is if they eliminate the Park on Upper Blue Grouse which BTW along with Snowshoe, are the best lower intermediate runs on the mountain. Ease Along was great when it was uncrowded but it still puts you into Bear Hollow so this just makes it worse because the turn around time will be half what it was on Becker or Needles. There is hope that they would cut a run that would extend Ease Along down the fall-line through Stewarts to Steins. This idea is totally doable as it is all scrub brush & some aspens which AFAIK require no permits to clear. It would be a cool run & would help keep traffic out of Bear Hollow but I've seen no evidence of it happening.
I agree with Amy that Willow is too steep for less than solid intermediates, besides it is the main training hill for OVST & closed to the public frequently.

Snowbasins 2 biggest issues during peak times last season were parking & congestion in the base area. This new lift does nothing to alleviate that, in fact it will probably make it worse. I've got a feeling they still won't open the old upper lot except when the other lots are full. If they were, you'd think they would've paved that lot. This seems like it was perhaps a reactionary decision to throw some available capitol that could've been better used elsewhere but maybe some obstacle prevented that so they went with Wildcat .

I began working & skiiing at Snowbasin in 2000 a couple years after the Gondolas went in. At that time there was talk of scrapping Wildcat altogether once the new lodges were complete, & after skiing there awhile I thought that would've been a great idea! I'm not sure how much this capitol improvement project cost but I think it must be in the multi million$.

Other ideas have come & gone but one that makes sense now would've been a new lift in Strawberry. The proposed lift would begin at the Strawberry base (or lower would open even more incredible low intermediate/beginner terrain) & terminate just above Dan's saddle & the usual fog/wind line. Anyway, I wish they'd gone with this idea instead of Wildcat.

Porcupine chairlift is also a popular lift but is old, cold & slow, upgrading there would've made more sense to me. They could put the bottom terminal even higher on the mountain, have a "get off' station at the present top terminal & then run a leg up to the top of Porky Cirque adding a beautiful north facing alpine bowl, more total vertical, acres of skiable terrain & the potential for late spring, early summer terrain parks & ski camps.

Around 10 years ago, about the time that the new Little Cat lift went in there was a push to build another parking area below Strawberry & a lift from there up into the Strawberry area. The lift line & two runs were cut for this lift but there was an impact study hold up so they went with Little Cat instead. The Strawberry expansion probably would've began the following season but the economy went bust & everything went on hold. The terrain at the bottom & below Stawberry & Penny Lane is the ideal pitch for low intermediate level skiers & there is lots of it! I have explored it numerous times & it is wonderful in many ways. Yes, it would require snowmaking but Snowbasin doesn't seem to be hurting for water.

I also think it was a mistake to trash the old Little Cat lift when they built the new one. In fact, it would serve a few needs if they ever decided to put a new extended version in the same location.

Another area for increased parking could be above Maples Lot where the tubing hill used to be. This area could also be a spot for first timer training or, as was mentioned a terrain park. The original halfpipe was there years ago & served by a handle tow. The handle tow also helped for the return trip from the Lower Pyramids. Snowbasin had a few handle tows from the Olympics & were going to use one for Orsons Park originally but it never happened. They had even poured the concrete pad for the lower terminal.

I was up there yesterday & the towers are all in as well as an impressive line of modern snowgun fans all mounted on their own towers. Their saving grace will be if it doesn't snow this season & Wildcat bowl with it's slick machine made snow is the best skiing in the west!!! I hope that's not the case, cuz I'll look like a fool .

 

[AmyPJ]

I agree with pretty much all of what you said. A lift on Strawberry that drops near Dan's would be amazing, and spread skiers out and away from Needles (and Bear Hollow.)
I wish terrain parks would go away, or have their own EXCLUSIVE area, with their own lift or tow. We were pondering over the weekend how many resources go into them, and how much of that money is actually a worthwhile investment?

Yes to Blue Grouse and Snowshoe. I loved Blue Grouse when Stew took me there a few years ago. What a shame that it's not available anymore. Snowshoe is also another favorite for me to just GO and work on skills without worrying about picking up too much speed.

I guess time will tell how things are going to pan out. One can dream that the Blue Grouse park is gone, and we can pop off of Wildcat and head that way again, without fearing for our lives or getting yelled at. Maybe I should be grateful that my daughter zips down Beck's like it's nothing anymore??

ETA I do wonder how the two traverses that reach Wildcat from the top are going to be handled if there is a big influx of skier traffic up there heading down, say, Herbert's. I have seen more "skier rage" incidents on those two cat tracks than anywhere else. And several crashes involving more than one skier/rider, as a lot of people come FLYING around those blind corners and come across those of us who do NOT like flying down cat tracks.

Oh, and an upgraded chair/expanded chair into Porky terrain? That would also be amazing. That is some of my favorite skiing over there. Of course, part of that is because it's typically VERY quiet. Still, it's a fun, under-utilized area.

 

[4ster]

I somehow lost the part about Becks, Bash & Centennial during a draft save. All 3 are Black Diamond runs & It won't surprise me if Becks becomes a frequent groomer that catches intermediates off guard. I saw evidence of this last spring when they were grooming it on weekends, snowboarders & skiers alike receiving near death experiences when they found themselves there before it began to thaw. Although Becks can be a fun groomer, I am with @tromano & hope it remains the traditional mogul run it was in the old days. It is one of the few true north facing runs at Snowbasin & to be a good mogul run it should never be groomed! Bash is way too steep for a terrain park & will become a bump run instead of the nice final pitch alternative to City Hill it always has been on a powder day. Bash is not on an ideal aspect but could occasionally be a decent "experts only" mogul run. The ridge above Becks is a mellower slope but it is short & narrow before quickly dropping into Centennial.

 

[AmyPJ]

Yeah, the way you can get "trapped" on Beck's, by assuming that the first little pitch that flattens out a bit before the main part of the run is what the run is all about, is scary. It'll be interesting to see if any of the signage up there changes, as all those runs are accessed the same way, and there isn't anything else over there that's easier.

 

[tromano]

I was up there hiking sunday as well and I look forward to further discussion in a few weeks after it goes live. I am sure that more changes will accompany this such as changes to grooming (hopefully not too much).

To me the fact that wildcat bowl this wide open run in the middle of the front side that no one ever skied so you could do SG turns down it on a busy day just felt more like a bug than a feature. Seeing that run so empty actually makes me feel sad - that run should not so empty. There are plenty of opportunities to bomb runs at snowbasin so its not really a loss that I will miss too much if it is more crowded some of the time.

Replying to @4ster another positive is that lower wildcat was often rocky and ungroomable early season. I ski the easy bumps down low some years it was good, other years the cover was very thin. More snowmaking down low has to be a good thing for getting things setup well and early. I think we will be glad the next time a low snow year comes around.

I am a little bit lost on the lower intermediate point. If you love long greens and dead easy blue cruisers well... Compare Snowbasin with PCMR, Deer Valley, Powder Mt., Brighton, even Beaver, then tell me where you would ski. Snowbasin will never be above average for UT ski areas in terms of what they offer in that department - unless and until they build a lodge expansion on the strawberry / trappers loop along with at least a one new lift to get you top the top of penny lane and another to get you back from Strawberry.

Many marketing strategies argue against trying hard to compete in markets where you already have an across the board disadvantage. You see this in the snowbird 1-star advertising campaign. As for snowbasin, they are already above average for Utah in the park scene. A blue terain park competes for trail space directly with the lower intermeds fave runs. While snowbasin is not going to be "good" for lower intermeds no matter what they do with this one trail or that one trail, I think they can be one of the top park resorts in UT. And in fact I think this lift will aid in that regard. This makes their current park configuration make much more sense from a trail map perspective and make it more lapable (assuming they cut the very bottom off of the orsons park or reorient it to showboat instead of orsons). I see this as a strategic decision. Strengthening a strength often is better than strengthening a weakness.

If they move the park somewhere else, well I am curious how that would play out. Its an insult to suggest putting it off to the side below on JP or whatever, you are talking ~200 vertical at most. Pshaw! But putting it on a main run below porky, that could work. Maybe they move it this year or next, solve the problem and then everyone is happy.

Snowbasins 2 biggest issues during peak times last season were parking & congestion in the base area. This new lift does nothing to alleviate that, in fact it will probably make it worse. I've got a feeling they still won't open the old upper lot except when the other lots are full. If they were, you'd think they would've paved that lot. This seems like it was perhaps a reactionary decision to throw some available capitol that could've been better used elsewhere but maybe some obstacle prevented that so they went with Wildcat .

The base area foot traffic issues is a 100% self inflicted wound. The entrance from the patio is just too narrow and there is not enough room for everyone to walk around with the people loading the gondola going in one direction and everyone else going the other. They put the entrance to the corral for the gondola in the wrong place. People should line up out on the snow. I suppose this new lift does help since if even a few of the gondie riders lap the 6 pack the base will be less crowded but jeeze. This at least should be an easy fix.

And the idea of expanding porky to the ridge line, don't they need another tram to do that? The winds and all. But it would be wicked.