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Chadly05

In the parking lot (formerly "At the base lodge")
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Nov 8, 2017
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After the help from all of you on on deciding on the length I have decided on the Laser AX in a 183.
Original thread. https://pugski.com/threads/stockli-laser-ax-size.6924/#post-169476

Thanks for al the great insight.

I think I have encountered paralysis by analysis :), most likely caused because of the price of these ski's as I don't view them as disposable as ski costing less and I typically by year end clearance. However, because the Laser AX is difficult to find and I just don't want to wait I am going to purchase them new. Which leads me to a couple questions.

  1. I can not find a local store that has them in stock. If it is part of the forum policy I would like to get input on business/shops they recommend or support that I could purchase them through?
  2. Without local shop knowledge of these ski's I am starting to wonder if I should be concerned about the mount position and how to make that determination. I am not that familiar with Bindings and have been using Marker Griffon on the last couple par of skis(Volkl Kendo 184 and Blizzard Bonfide 187). Does anyone have any recommendations on the mount position or binding options that allow fore/aft adjustments with out compromising too much ski control?
My general guidelines for these skis...
I am mid 40's, 6'1" 270lb, advanced skier
Boot 29.5 /335 sole Tecnica Mach 1 130
Primary use for these skis is Midwest skiing on hardback ice and maybe an occasional use out west of I am going to be spending most my day on groomers and not a lot of crud.
 
Last edited:

martyg

Making fresh tracks
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Maybe purchase with the Salomon binding kit?
 
Thread Starter
TS
C

Chadly05

In the parking lot (formerly "At the base lodge")
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Maybe purchase with the Salomon binding kit?
I wanted to but I am having trouble finding that ski with the Salomon System Bindings in the 183 length.
 

TahoeCharlie

...Major Tom...
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Ok, here's my two cents. I picked up a new pair of 175's last spring, put 25 days on them spring skiing at Squaw, was disappointed in their ski-ability, especially for the price. It seemed like the bindings were mounted too far back, took a lot of effort to pressure the tips. Checked around and found several comments about demoing first to check the mount point. Measured mine and found that the recommended bindings were mounted on center but they had a significantly different "ramp angle" then my old bindings. Talked to @Philpug and picked up a pair of last years Attack 13 DEMO bindings (cheap and same ramp as my old skis/bindings) and had him mount them one inch forward. Viola, problem solved! May experiment a little more with position as the demo bindings have great latitude for position adjustment - that's why I got them.

If you are open to bindings, the Attack Demo's are an excellent performance binding; just ask all the Pugskiers that use them. Point being Attack Demo's would let you play with the mount point without the re-mounting fixed bindings would require.

BTW, you will find the AX's are fantastic front side skis; ice, firm, crud, slush, bumps, a few inches new, no problem and they make any turn shape you want. Plus they are super stable and smooth at any speeds in my normal range of 35-45.
 

Lorenzzo

Be The Snow
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FWIW...I have them (176) on the line with Fischer race bindings (Tyrolia mfr.) and love them that way.
 

epicentre

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For what its worth I have my 175's 1.5cm's forward. I think they ski much easier and better this way. I also found that on center I had to pressure the tips too much for my liking. I understand this is a race and technically derived ski so I do not fault Stockli for this. I think its just my lack of race background and current style of skiing. The negative to putting them forward is I feel the sweet spot of the ski is noticeably reduced, so its a bit of a tradeoff in the end.
 

cosmoliu

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I skied mine a couple of days on center, then noticed that the word is that they seem to handle better in bumps 1 cm forward. I did that and like them that way.
 

flbufl

Getting on the lift
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Jan 31, 2017
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I have just demoed some Stockli yesterday and totally agree. Yes, the factory mounting point of the AX is too far back. It put me back seated several times. But I did not notice this problem on any other Stockli skis I demoed on the same day, including Laser GS, SL, Stormrider 88, 95, 105.

Ok, here's my two cents. I picked up a new pair of 175's last spring, put 25 days on them spring skiing at Squaw, was disappointed in their ski-ability, especially for the price. It seemed like the bindings were mounted too far back, took a lot of effort to pressure the tips. Checked around and found several comments about demoing first to check the mount point. Measured mine and found that the recommended bindings were mounted on center but they had a significantly different "ramp angle" then my old bindings. Talked to @Philpug and picked up a pair of last years Attack 13 DEMO bindings (cheap and same ramp as my old skis/bindings) and had him mount them one inch forward. Viola, problem solved! May experiment a little more with position as the demo bindings have great latitude for position adjustment - that's why I got them.

If you are open to bindings, the Attack Demo's are an excellent performance binding; just ask all the Pugskiers that use them. Point being Attack Demo's would let you play with the mount point without the re-mounting fixed bindings would require.

BTW, you will find the AX's are fantastic front side skis; ice, firm, crud, slush, bumps, a few inches new, no problem and they make any turn shape you want. Plus they are super stable and smooth at any speeds in my normal range of 35-45.
 

Ron

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I skied with an attack demo 1st and played around with the mount. For me 5mm forward was the sweet spot. The owner at Steamboat Ski also suggested going 5mm to 1cm forward. I put Fischer RC4 Z13's with a toe lifter and love this setup. The added stand height plus this Freeflex binding is really sweet. Not to mention, it totally matches the ski :)

capture1(1).jpg
 

Jersey Skier

aka RatherPlayThanWork or Gary
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For what its worth I have my 175's 1.5cm's forward. I think they ski much easier and better this way. I also found that on center I had to pressure the tips too much for my liking. I understand this is a race and technically derived ski so I do not fault Stockli for this. I think its just my lack of race background and current style of skiing. The negative to putting them forward is I feel the sweet spot of the ski is noticeably reduced, so its a bit of a tradeoff in the end.

I didn't want to re-drill my skis so I added a small toe lift as the bindings weren't flat anyway. Made a world of difference engaging the tips.
 

Turnoisier

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This might not be exactly the right place for this question, but since it relates to a pair of stockli skis and the salomon AM12 binding system they came with, here is probably as good as anywhere.

The problem is that I would like to raise the toe by 3mm. I am presuming that the toe of the AM12 binding can't easily be raised in isolation from the heel, short of manufacturing a long tapered plastic wedge that would fit under the entire system (and even then I can't see how it could be securely attached to the ski). So, I also presume that I am now in the market for new bindings. Unfortunately, there appears to be almost no information available on the AM12. Is it possible that I could replace it with the Warden demo binding (or any other Salomon binding where the toe is not attached to the heel) without redrilling the ski? I will redrill if I have to, and that would certainly increase my binding options, but it would be nice if I could avoid it.

I know this would be easier if I had the skis and bindings in front of me, but sadly that is not the case, which is why I have already wasted so much time scouring the internet for relevant binding templates (without any luck).

If I am wrong about any of my assumptions (Ron, you appear to have shimmed the toe of a binding that doesn't look entirely dissimilar to the AM12), or has any information about the AM12 that might help, I'd love to hear it!
 

Ron

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paging @Philpug to the "all things binding phone". I consulted Phil before mounting up my Lasers an used the toe shim. I don't think my setup is the choice of many but I am still very happy with it and really like the Z13's.
 

Turnoisier

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Thanks @Ron.

A little further digging suggests the AM12 binding uses the X-Track plate. As far as the Salomon technical manual is concerned, the X-track and the Warden demo are in different rows of the installation table. But, being barely ski-binding literate, I don't know what that means...
 

TahoeCharlie

...Major Tom...
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This might not be exactly the right place for this question, but since it relates to a pair of stockli skis and the salomon AM12 binding system they came with, here is probably as good as anywhere.

The problem is that I would like to raise the toe by 3mm. I am presuming that the toe of the AM12 binding can't easily be raised in isolation from the heel, short of manufacturing a long tapered plastic wedge that would fit under the entire system (and even then I can't see how it could be securely attached to the ski). So, I also presume that I am now in the market for new bindings. Unfortunately, there appears to be almost no information available on the AM12. Is it possible that I could replace it with the Warden demo binding (or any other Salomon binding where the toe is not attached to the heel) without redrilling the ski? I will redrill if I have to, and that would certainly increase my binding options, but it would be nice if I could avoid it.

I know this would be easier if I had the skis and bindings in front of me, but sadly that is not the case, which is why I have already wasted so much time scouring the internet for relevant binding templates (without any luck).

If I am wrong about any of my assumptions (Ron, you appear to have shimmed the toe of a binding that doesn't look entirely dissimilar to the AM12), or has any information about the AM12 that might help, I'd love to hear it!

My 2 cents: just bite the bullet and go to a two piece binding. I believe you can still find last years Attack13 Demo's at some of the larger on-line ski shops for a big discount. I paid less then $90 for mine including shipping - excellent binding - much cheaper then Wardens.
 

Turnoisier

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Thanks @TahoeCharlie. I agree. I am in the process of biting the bullet. And the Attack 13 demo is definitely on the list. For some reason (I know it is basically irrational), I find myself worrying about the toe on the Attack. I realise there are no more incidents of ACL injuries reported for people using bindings that don't have some sort of diagonal release at the toe, but a slightly superstitious bit of me still thinks I should take whatever safety measures I can. A debate that's done to death, I know...
 

ScottB

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Chadly05,

I am 6'4", 240lbs and have a 29.5 BSL. I find I need to mount 1cm back from the factory line on most skis. This puts my 29.5 size ball of foot in the same spot as a typical male boot size, 27.5. From what others are saying, on the AX you might want to mount on the line which will be the same as most people at +1.

I use the tyrollia Attack 13 demo's and love them. I use several bindings and Tyrollia's don't ski any different.
 

martyg

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Chadly -

All of my Stockli's are mounted ski mounting line to boot center line.

What diagnostics have you had that indicates you should ramp the front binding?
 

Paul Lutes

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Just out of curiosity: how many people, after enough time on the ski to judge - say 4-5 days, ended up with the AX mount boot center right on the line?
When I initially mounted mine on the line, they were almost unskiable (for me, with NTN freeheel bindings). My bindings allowed a 1.3 cm forward shift, which helped significantly but still not as good as I was expecting, based on my ARs (AX predecessor). I then stood the AXs up next to the ARs (exact same dimensions) and observed the the AX mount mark is 1.5 cm further tailwards relative to the ARs. Granted, they are not exactly the same skis, but it does seem like Stockli may have overestimated the impact of the changes regarding mount point. See??? Even Stockli isn't perfect!
 

martyg

Making fresh tracks
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Just out of curiosity: how many people, after enough time on the ski to judge - say 4-5 days, ended up with the AX mount boot center right on the line?
When I initially mounted mine on the line, they were almost unskiable (for me, with NTN freeheel bindings). My bindings allowed a 1.3 cm forward shift, which helped significantly but still not as good as I was expecting, based on my ARs (AX predecessor). I then stood the AXs up next to the ARs (exact same dimensions) and observed the the AX mount mark is 1.5 cm further tailwards relative to the ARs. Granted, they are not exactly the same skis, but it does seem like Stockli may have overestimated the impact of the changes regarding mount point. See??? Even Stockli isn't perfect!

I think that there is waaaaaaaay too much emphasis on binding placement. If your weight is centered and you are standing on your entire foot. If you can wiggle the toes of both feet throughout all phases of a turn, you are probably centered. If in your video analysis and MA you see your heel and toe rotating an equal amount around the point where your tibia intersects with your foot, you are probably centered. By being centered the ski will act predictably and you will have the greatest range of options available to you.

In the product development process each major manufacturer has a team of developers. I can say with absolute certainty that individually they share info and sometimes ski on each others' protos. When the final protos are built and by the time the first production run hits the major manufacturers may have had 25 - 35+ very talented skiers on those skis. This is not static process limited to our snow season, but involves travel of testers and protos to wherever the snow is, often for 12 months of the year. These are often people who have been doing this for decades, are impeccably skilled at technical skiing, can make any ski do what they want. They will ski the ski in a fashion that is consistent with the movement patterns of the target consumer. Sometimes, a model will be killed or altered (and not always for the best) because price point / expectations do not meet market analysis or management's goals. Note that I say major manufacturers (and I put Stockli into that category due to attention to detail and their development process). Many manufacturers simply don;'t have the resources, or don't have the talent pool, or don't have their development calendar dialed to complete this due diligence.

In 30 years of teaching I've run across a few people who would have benefited from moving a binding, but those are instances that I could count on one hand. It is often the Indian, not the arrow.
 

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