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Ski bum race skis for the carving-challenged

backseat driver

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Looking forward to first time on a ski bum race team this year, been skiing since the 70s, but I never really carve (more of a slarve) and never raced previously.

Skis I own were chosen more for being bumps/ungroomed friendly than anything else: Latigo (177) , FX94 (176) and Soul 7 (188)

Overall, I definitely want to improve technically (admire those skiers leaving really clean tracks) and am planning some instruction as part of this year as well.

So I think I'm ideally looking for a ski that gives good feedback on carving (probably going slower), which I could also use for ski bum racing (hopefully going faster.)

Suggestions? (If it helps, mostly ski at Stowe, 6'4"/180lbs)
Cheater GS skis (18m radius?): Rossi Hero Master (175), Head iSpeed GS, Volkl Racetiger GS
A more frontside oriented ski than what I have now: One of the Supershapes, Laser AX (unless too wide?), etc
Just ski what I have and focus on the instruction for now.

Thanks for any input.
 
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backseat driver

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Thanks - ski bum series is at Stowe and takes place on Slalom Hill on the Spruce side. It's a blue trail that is relatively flat after the start house, then there's a knoll and steeper on the second half of the run.
 
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Dakine

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I love my Hero Masters but my Fisher WC SC's are faster for me when it is icy and rutty because I can hold my line better.
Once you can really carve, a speedsuit is worth 3-5 hc points.
 

Josh Matta

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Yeha both me and Epic ski at stowe and both of us either have raced or currently race the series.....

at your size and weight a 175cm Master ski is too short. I think any masters ski in about 180cm- 185cm range will be your ticket. They all make good skis just find soemthing and get it.

these are local and would be a decent ski bum ski and a very fun all around carver.

http://www.skiessentials.com/2017-volkl-racetiger-sw-gs-uvo-skis-w-rmotion-bindings.html
 

Burton

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So, I just ran a course on Competition Hill at Stowe last weekend--not a ski bum or beer league race, but I'm guessing they used more or less the same set. A cheater would be fine, but I'm of the opinion that for these short, quick races, the sets tend to be a fair bit tighter than a GS, so I'm always looking for a good 15-16m ski. That rules out a real race ski, and most the of the so-called cheaters or citizen GS skis (which tend to range from 18-23m) but there's some very good skis in the tweener range. So instead of looking at the Hero Master, I'd recommend the Dynastar Speed 14, and if you're considering Stockli, I'd go with the Laser SC. I skied both those skis last weekend, and the Stockli is super smooth, though my preference was for the Dynastar which I found very easy to initiate a turn on, gripped ice really well, damp, and good at plowing through all sorts of crud. I've raced beer league on the prior generation of this ski and it's almost ideal.
 
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backseat driver

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Thanks for the replies. I am confused though on radius of the ski vs turn radius of the course that was set.

If gates are set between SL and GS radius, is it more likely for a skier working on technique to make a properly carved turn on:
-an SL ski (is it being skied flatter?)
-a ski with matching radius between SL and GS
-a GS ski (presume you need to bend the ski more) ??

Sorry for lack of what should probably be basic understanding.
 

Burton

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It's easier if you under-size the ski radius to the course. A short radius ski generally speaking will also make medium radius turns well, but it's really hard to make a GS work in shorter radius turns without resorting to a skidded turn or stivot, which is what I think you're working on getting away from. And if you're working on carving a turn in a course that's somewhere between a slalom and a GS, then I would err on the side of a short turn ski, but for these kind of league races, there's generally no need to go full slalom. A lot of the tweener skis (and I'd put the Dynastar Speed 14 in this category) kind of perform like a slalom ski in short turns, but they're a bit longer and have a bit of tip riser which both makes turn initiation easier and adds a bit of stability and smoothness to longer, faster turns. I've forerun slalom races on a 15m Dynastar, and run a regular USSA-style GS on them. Not the ideal ski for either scenario, but worked just fine. They really shine in the kind of course you're describing. They have somewhat less torsional stiffness than a real race ski, and less forceful rebound, but they're also more fun outside the course.
 

Erik Timmerman

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OK, I've been doing the Stowe ski bum race for about 15 seasons. Even though it's "between SL and GS set", the fast guys are on full bore GS skis. The sets are pretty straight since we race side by side and the hill is sort of narrow. Don't get anything under 18m or so, at least a 180 ( say that even though I raced on a 178 last season :ogcool:, it was not ideal). What you really ought to do is demo a few skis and start to get an idea of what you like - and also take a lesson... from me! Realize that it's a handicap race and your first races totally don't matter as you need to build a handicap so the worse you do at the start, the better. That means you can feel it out and figure out how to do it before you get too obsessive about skis.

As for specific models, you will see a lot of the Rossi Heros and a lot of Dynastars. The Blizzard and Nordica consumer GS is nice - I'm looking to sell a pair of 186s... The Laser AX you mention may be a great ski, not too wide, but maybe a bit too turny to be ideal. I think most of the Supershapes would be too turny, I did one season on the iSpeed, it made me feel like a hero, but it was just plain slow. When the radius is too short you will feel great but you will be slow

I'll say again though, you can start on anything and move up, there are people that race on reverse camber powder skis and do surprisingly well (of course they are excellent skiers) and lots of people that are doing it on slaloms and stuff. You'll see. It's super fun, you will meet lots of people and you will go places you haven't been before. You will get better at skiing too. There are usually a couple of training groups Monday and Thursday I think, but it changes every year.
 

Erik Timmerman

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So, I just ran a course on Competition Hill at Stowe last weekend--not a ski bum or beer league race, but I'm guessing they used more or less the same set. A cheater would be fine, but I'm of the opinion that for these short, quick races, the sets tend to be a fair bit tighter than a GS, so I'm always looking for a good 15-16m ski. That rules out a real race ski, and most the of the so-called cheaters or citizen GS skis (which tend to range from 18-23m) but there's some very good skis in the tweener range. So instead of looking at the Hero Master, I'd recommend the Dynastar Speed 14, and if you're considering Stockli, I'd go with the Laser SC. I skied both those skis last weekend, and the Stockli is super smooth, though my preference was for the Dynastar which I found very easy to initiate a turn on, gripped ice really well, damp, and good at plowing through all sorts of crud. I've raced beer league on the prior generation of this ski and it's almost ideal.

Were you doing Bombers? That course was set with more swing than we have when running side by side. I ran it and was about 4 seconds slower than typical ski bum time on that hill. That's why you can get away with a FIS ski even with the same number of gates. The skis I've used the last few years are a 23m 183cm FIS Rossi from about 15 years ago (gold and black ones, you'll still see quite a few of them), a 186cm Nordica GSR 20m, and Fischer The Curv 178 18m. I'm planning on running a 185 The Curv this season unless I find a cheap 25m Masters ski.
 

KevinF

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Were you doing Bombers? That course was set with more swing than we have when running side by side. I ran it and was about 4 seconds slower than typical ski bum time on that hill. That's why you can get away with a FIS ski even with the same number of gates. The skis I've used the last few years are a 23m 183cm FIS Rossi from about 15 years ago (gold and black ones, you'll still see quite a few of them), a 186cm Nordica GSR 20m, and Fischer The Curv 178 18m. I'm planning on running a 185 The Curv this season unless I find a cheap 25m Masters ski.

Do you guys basically run a NASTAR type set? Nashoba (my course) doesn't use a lot of offset either, but the fast people are virtually all on FIS slalom skis becuase they pack in 18 or 19 gates into 240 vertical feet.
 

Burton

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Were you doing Bombers? That course was set with more swing than we have when running side by side. I ran it and was about 4 seconds slower than typical ski bum time on that hill. That's why you can get away with a FIS ski even with the same number of gates.
Yep! I was in Bombers. I didn't think about the fact that the Tuesday races have to squeeze in dual courses. If that Bombers course was 4 seconds slower, the Tuesday races must be REALLY quick! I ran it on some FIS slaloms, though I did that just to to get a feel for the skis--longer would definitely have worked better. If the Tuesday races are straighter, I retract my previous uninformed recommendation for turny skis.
Nashoba (my course) doesn't use a lot of offset either, but the fast people are virtually all on FIS slalom skis becuase they pack in 18 or 19 gates into 240 vertical feet.
I race at Nashoba, too, and decided to switch over to FIS slaloms this year. Maybe that will make me a fast guy? That's how it works, right?
 
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backseat driver

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Very helpful input thanks - though I am still a bit unsure how being relatively "technically weak" factors into the equation. Is it correct to say that, if I were technically strong, given my size, a good length would be mid to high 180s and up, and a good radius would be 21-23m and up. However, given my need to progress from the basics, I should aim for closer to 180cm and 18m? Here are some of the skis mentioned so far sorted by radius for the 180+ lengths:

Rossi Hero Master (180) - 21m
Volkl Racetiger GS (180) - 19.1m
Laser SX (184) - 18.3m
Head World Cup Rebel iSpeed /Pro (180) 18m
Laser AX (183) - 17.5m
Atomic Redster X9 (181) - 16.2m (Pugski review includes "Who is it not for? ...a technically weak skier"...)
Dynastar Speed 12 or 14 Ti (182) - 15m(?)

Assume I should mainly consider skis toward the middle? (Some of these are the longest available lengths, which somehow gives me the mental image of being on a runaway racehorse...) Anyway, thoughts on which if any are relatively forgiving/more progression friendly i.e., reward good technique without too hard a spanking for being in the backseat? still responsive at lower speed, still allow you to drift/scrub, etc.

Thanks again
 

flbufl

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You can take the Laser AX out. It is not in the same category.
Maybe also considering the Blossom Fly Up. It now has two versions of different stiffness to choose from.

Very helpful input thanks - though I am still a bit unsure how being relatively "technically weak" factors into the equation. Is it correct to say that, if I were technically strong, given my size, a good length would be mid to high 180s and up, and a good radius would be 21-23m and up. However, given my need to progress from the basics, I should aim for closer to 180cm and 18m? Here are some of the skis mentioned so far sorted by radius for the 180+ lengths:

Rossi Hero Master (180) - 21m
Volkl Racetiger GS (180) - 19.1m
Laser SX (184) - 18.3m
Head World Cup Rebel iSpeed /Pro (180) 18m
Laser AX (183) - 17.5m
Atomic Redster X9 (181) - 16.2m (Pugski review includes "Who is it not for? ...a technically weak skier"...)
Dynastar Speed 12 or 14 Ti (182) - 15m(?)

Assume I should mainly consider skis toward the middle? (Some of these are the longest available lengths, which somehow gives me the mental image of being on a runaway racehorse...) Anyway, thoughts on which if any are relatively forgiving/more progression friendly i.e., reward good technique without too hard a spanking for being in the backseat? still responsive at lower speed, still allow you to drift/scrub, etc.

Thanks again
 
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FWIW, I am leaning toward the Head Rebel iSpeed at the moment (and my kids do like the skull and crossbones) though it seems to come in 2 versions - I think the Pro has a more substantial plate, which may or may not be better for me.

Definitely don't want to end up as the ski bum version of this guy though

 

Erik Timmerman

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If that Bombers course was 4 seconds slower, the Tuesday races must be REALLY quick!

If I recall correctly, one time when the course was even straighter than normal the winner broke 17 seconds. I honestly wonder what the time would be if you just tucked and didn't turn at all.
 

Muleski

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I grew up as a MMSC kid a hundred years ago, and "a while ago" I raced in those ski bum races when I was first out of college. Yes, as I recall the race times could really vary based on the set. A LOT of fun. I'm amazed when I check the Stowe Reporter every now and then to see familiar names form decades ago...and some of the same teams.

I'm going to ask @markojp to weigh in on the exact difference between the i.speed Rebel and the Pro. The plate is different. In past years it was the RDX plate that was also supplied on the race GS an SL skis. Typical binding would be a Freeflex Evo 16, or the all metal Freeflex 16X. The i.speed used to come with a "Speed Flex" plate, predrilled for a Freeflex Pro 14 binding.

My question is whether the actual layup of the ski is any different. The dimensions have been identical. I don't believe that the Pro was available until last year.

I've skied three different pairs of i.speeds, all 180cm. I bought a pair a few years ago, barely used, from @ScotsSkier, who was selling them for a Master's friend. He had tried, as I recall, to convince this guy that it was poor choice for real Masters GS sets. And, it is. I love how they ski. It's my hard snow ski of choice. When SS and I were discussing it, he knew that I was not going to race it, and he agreed that it might be a great ski to free ski.....at some speed, with good movement and current technique. i.e.. a lot of edge angle. The ski can be worked in to a variety of turn shapes.

The reason that it's a poor choice for a real Master's set, at least for some, is that if you engage the tip and drive it. it's going to hook up with the 18M radius turn {or less}, and you'll be "double turning" and dumping speed. My hunch is that it might be great for this, or at least darn good. Of course the OP is going to need to work on his technique to get the most out of it, but he'll be able to skid, stint, slarve, etc.

I pulled the plate and binding off my second pair of these, replaced it with an RDX plate, and a Tyrolia 18 DIN race binding. I'm not sure how much differently it skied to be honest. The RDX is not a particularly beefy plate, and in fact the real big guns on Head use a variety of other plates.

But I would like to know about the actual ski. Seems like the Pro might have a different layup? I know that @markojp skis the Pro at least some of the time.

I've skied most of the GS cheaters. Through family, I've skied the Nordica, the Blizz, and the Volkl. I've skied the Rossi, and the ski that started the category, the Fischer. I think they are all really good, to be honest. The Head seems to work for me. I'm 5'10", 210 lbs. I much prefer how the 180cm skis to the 185cm, BTW.

I can also see how a longer radius masters GS would be money for the purpose. When our daughter was a comp'd athlete she used to get some very good, pretty beefy 183cm, 23M radius skis. Fun ski. Of course when our son was younger, his real deal 188cm, 27M GS skis were awesome, too.

Awaiting the i.speed Pro intel. Thanks, Marko!
 

markojp

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Pro has the RD layup schedule and WC plate in the 18r package. It's a bit like the difference between a Hero Master and Hero LT. They're a blast just to ski on. Love the Hero Master as well.
 

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