Russia banned from 2018 Olympics.

[Frankly]

@Primoz Roughly, what is the cost per athlete of an Olympic-level athlete's doping regiment?

Asking for a friend haha

 

[Primoz]

@Frankly I have no idea how it's now, but few years ago it was around 100.000eur/year. Talking for level where Olympic medals are in play, not for level where WC points are occasionaly in play.

 

[SShore]

I assume that we have more than a few "enhanced" alpine racers, and a whole bunch of XC skiers, on the WC. Why would you assume not?

Not sure that we have many/any in the USA, though.

That is what I thought about Americans in the pro peloton back in the early 2000. Boy was I wrong, Lance, Tyler, Floyd, Levi, George, etc. etc. lead the pack in doping.

 

[SShore]

t's a discussion, regarding alpine skiing, that I would simply prefer not to have, either. None of our recent WC group has tested positive, that we know of. Therefore, defacto clean.

As Lance maintained all along, he never failed a doping test, defacto, he was clean, until he wasn't.

 

[Muleski]

That is what I thought about Americans in the pro peloton back in the early 2000. Boy was I wrong, Lance, Tyler, Floyd, Levi, George, etc. etc. lead the pack in doping.

Well, I never felt that way about cycling for a number of reasons. One of my dad's younger business associates was a former world class cyclist who had defected from an Eastern Block country, and he had described the program that he was on to me, in detail, in the late 1970's.

I also know one of the five cyclists that you mention, and have for most of his life. Despite his claiming to so many to be clean, you didn't need an advanced degree to see it in this physique and performance.

So in my case, I had zero illusions.

My business was one of the sponsors of a pro team in those years. No illusions. None. When Lance was on his tear, I had every assumption that he was very, very dirty. I remember explaining to people how blood doping worked, and they thought I was nuts.

So, let's say I'm not as naive as a few of you guys think I am.

I'm pretty involved in this sport. Alpine racing. Right now, current state, I think in alpine racing the USA is reasonably clean, perhaps very clean. I've had that conversation with a number of people who also point out that our performance is at an all time low. Not like we're "best in the world."

The demographics of where most of our athletes come from, their educations, etc. point to the fact that many just might not cross the line. Others, I "assume" have. And gone back and forth. How badly do you want it?

Having observed some significant changes among some of the best, outside of the USA, as well as thinking about the best in this country, I would be the farm that the testing has been pretty "ineffective." Is that polite enough?

Interesting to hear athletes staunchly proclaim that they "are not putting that stuff in their bodies" when they are young, and perhaps naive. Before they realize that any of us would be prescribed banned substances to help us recover from injury better and sooner, as one example. So how harmful can it be?

Then of course, when the entire upper level of a sport is on a program, it becomes very clear that you have two choices. Do it and join in to be competitive and have a chance, or abstain and be "a lot less competitive."

The WC alpine field is not, IME, all in on this. No doubt many are. More than we likely assume as fans. More than we frankly want to know about.

I'm suggesting that it's rare among our USA alpine skiers, and always has been. Probably has not helped our performance. We have some who have been at the top of their game, IMO, for many other reasons.

There is no way that I am suggesting that if our people have been the best, they have been "doping." Nor am I boldly proclaiming that they have not, or that it's been one way or another.

It's in every sport. Any sailors? How many of the America's Cup grinders....the guys pedaling these days on the cats to generate the power...do we think are totally clean. Might be all of them. Might be none. If I had made my life that sport, had the chance to earn that money and live that life, and it boiled down to being on a program or not, I bet I'd be all in.

Just an ugly topic. And I hate discussing it with this sport as it's small and gets real personal and really targeted fast.

Just my thinking. And I agree never failing a test and being clean are not the same, at all. But what else do we have?

 

[Eleeski]

The drug industry has done wonders to enhance the quality of our lives. Athletes should be able to get the health benefits of modern medicine - not be subject to a PED witchhunt. The reason for banning PEDs should be to protect the health of the athletes. From bike racers dying during the Tour (or getting testicular cancer) to East German women with facial hair (and lasting fertility problems), the excesses of PEDs gave birth to WADA. It's easy to go too far seeking "purity".

Healthy PEDs like aspirin and Naproxen are legal - and absolutely should be. Why is the cortisone millions (billions?) of people use regularly regulated? Antihistamine cold medicine? (The gymnast with a cold taking Sudafed did not have an advantage - even if she was Russian.) Rules get written to exclude legitimate uses that might enhance the health of an athlete during training or recovery. Who ever died from a transfusion of their own blood in the middle of a weeks long race? It might be riskier to have depleted racers zooming down mountain roads at ridiculous speeds. Sure it's against the rules, but why? And why rewrite the rules to exclude people with allergies? (TUEs for Prednisone are being challenged.)

There is a lot of testing - especially at high levels of sport. To not fail the test, you have to be clean during the test. And clean for some time before the test. And clean enough to not fail the random tests that get aimed at suspects (top performers). Testing does work to keep the worst excesses from killing the athletes. Is it perfect? Yes, if the measure is preventing athletes from showing up full of the mix of heroin, cocaine and speed. No, if you want to prevent every use of everything WADA lists.

The Russian situation is pretty scary. Manipulating the testing could allow the excesses of the past to return. The athletes who pass independent testing should be allowed to compete but the Russian testing is suspect.

Eric

 

[Tricia]

I look away for a day and this happens. Closing this thread until we can clean up.

 

[Tricia]

Anyone who knows me, knows that I'm not the most PC person on the planet, but we had a few reports on the direction of this thread and I cleaned up some things that were going down a path that none of us want to go down.
Lets remember, we all love skiing and this thread is about Olympic competitors, and while we are likely to tread on some politics of PEDs, Olympic corruption and other things, lets keep it civil.

Unlocking so we can carry on and (perhaps) learn something.

 

[newfydog]

One saving grace for Alpine skiing, is that dope may help, but not to the degree it would help, say a cyclist in a time trial, or a track sprinter.. Thomas Vonn probably had some of the strongest legs in skiing, but it takes more than that to win in this sport. Hirscher with just a clean weight program will still beat most any skier on drugs.

 

[hbear]

Not to be cynical (as I do give athletes the benefit of the doubt until proven otherwise) but they also said this about golf too.

The premis is one assumes unskilled doper vs skilled athlete. The flaw in that thinking is it doesn’t consider skilled athlete doper. Just saying.

 

[newfydog]

. The flaw in that thinking is it doesn’t consider skilled athlete doper. Just saying.

My thinking is never fflawed . Obviously anyone from the top to the bottom is tempted. However, in skiing it is possible to win without drugs. In other sports that has not been the case at times.