Speaking of endurance sports, I’d be all over the curling teams - especially the sweepers. You have no idea the advantage a bit of doping might provide. Unless, of course, they can prove their innocence.
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Russia banned from 2018 Olympics.
- Thread starter KingGrump
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Well if performance enhancement is impossible to effectively police, is there any research being done in creating safe protocols to use performance enhancement in "best case"?
I understand there have been all kinds of horrific side effects but how much of this is because of ignorance, secrecy, and lack of resources? What if it was open and there was serious research to minimize the downsides?
Who wouldn't want to use a proven, relatively safe enhancement if it improves your physical and mental abilities? Shouldn't this be a positive thing? Shouldn't sick and disabled people be pumped full of whatever works to give them every opportunity possible?
I understand there have been all kinds of horrific side effects but how much of this is because of ignorance, secrecy, and lack of resources? What if it was open and there was serious research to minimize the downsides?
Who wouldn't want to use a proven, relatively safe enhancement if it improves your physical and mental abilities? Shouldn't this be a positive thing? Shouldn't sick and disabled people be pumped full of whatever works to give them every opportunity possible?
I'm to the point of just letting adults do whatever they want as long as it hasn't been proven to be more harmful or additive than alcohol or tobacco. That pretty much includes everything short of opium and meth. Focus on going to all lengths to keep kids away from PEDS with the harshest penalties and bans. Let adults have a free for all. Heck, how much worse than CTE can PEDs be? You're likely shaving quite a few years and quality of golden year life away when you compete at the highest levels in many sports totally clean or with approved stuff. Look at all the cortisone and other pain meds NFL and WWE uses with approval and the CTE risk simply for showing up for starters.
And I thought they preferred beer!
Proof of innocence is an interesting standard. Interesting in that it would mean presumption of guilt. Let's see...where has that standard been applied in modern western systems of justice? Hmm...I think the answer is nowhere but then proof of an absence of something is a tough thing...which is what proof of innocence is.
No credible arbiter would/could apply that standard.
Have any World Cup alpine skiers ever been caught doping? They do get tested, though I don't know how often.
Scott43 I do not envy your worldview. It would kill my joy as a spectator to assume that most alpine racers were doping. And chances are so slim that your assumption is correct...why kill the joy for no good reason??
On some level I can't reconcile skiing with PED use; doping seems so antithetical to the culture of skiing. Skiing is fun, even for the highest level athletes. I know that's naive but I'd rather live in that bubble and continue to enjoy the sport as a participant and fan.
Scott43 I do not envy your worldview. It would kill my joy as a spectator to assume that most alpine racers were doping. And chances are so slim that your assumption is correct...why kill the joy for no good reason??
On some level I can't reconcile skiing with PED use; doping seems so antithetical to the culture of skiing. Skiing is fun, even for the highest level athletes. I know that's naive but I'd rather live in that bubble and continue to enjoy the sport as a participant and fan.
Haha we're more like the USSR used to be... presumption of guilt is widespread in the West nowadays... "incorrect" people are being held for months before bail hearings. Thinking the wrong way is a hate crime. And those accused of sexual assault who don't immediate collapse into a drivelling mess of sobs and apologies might as well be guilty.
And don't forget property seizures of suspected drug offenders. You can be innocent but the cops have your house, car, and cash.
Only logical that this kind of prosecution first attitude prevails in sports as well.
Culture or not, competition and $$$ change everything. Especially in a sport where the winners are well rewarded and the also rans have next to no support. There is certainly the potential and it’s not a leap to suggest pathways where PEDS can help (never mind help of recovery through the gruelling travel schedule). HOWEVER so far none I know have tested positive and I will take that at face value.
They are tested extensively, I know Lara Gut was more than annoyed when she had to test late one night and then again the very next morning.
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are you serious ? the American drug industry has always been close to the top.
Your forgetting Marion Jones, Flo Jo, Lewis and many many others. Not to mention numerous Colleges and Pro Sports.
Usually the best in doping stay slightly ahead of the detection. The ability to retest and successfully find traces of performance enhancement in stored samples is the best thing to have happened in many years. Now those cheating have to worry about the current sophistication of testing and what will be developed in future.
Some enhancements being used are not even officially banned yet. Eventually all will be. Its going to be harder to claim anything you took that improved your performance was actually not illegal at the time.
I believe most compete fairly from every nation but unfortunately there are always some places and organizations in which the culture of winning trumps everything. Feel very sorry for those other Russian athletes tainted with this.
Just two. Who have been publicly called out. Alain Baxter after the 2002 Olympic SL. Lost his bronze medal; amphetamine positive test.
Hans Knauss, 18 months for Steroid use. Both were blood tested, BTW. I mention that because during most of the season the athletes are urine tested. Blood testing has increased. Blood tested after World Championships, Olympics, and on the off season {maybe once?} was the norm a while ago.
Am I serious? I'm taking about alpine ski racing in the US. Nothing else. And yes, I think our number is fairly low. I am 100% certain that it is not zero, among our recent WC skiers, though.
It absolutely is NOT zero among the whole circuit.
Some help with recovery. Some add a lot of lean muscle mass. Some boost performance. Just need to be a step ahead of the testing.
Just discussing alpine ski racing. Not every other sport, and the hundreds or thousands of high profile PED users. I know a number of cyclists who were "filthy" with this. In fact it's hard to think of a sport not affected, when you consider recoveries.
Most sports, in the USA have had their very dark side on this. Alpine skiing not so much.
I'm not getting into names at all. Nope.
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With all the work the alpine skiers do to build power, there is no way in hell there are not some drugs involved. Somehow, certain sports are in the spotlight, others not so much. OK, curling, maybe not such a big issue, but I find it hard to imagine that alpine skiing, women's tennis, etc are not pretty dirty, just somehow stay a bit under the radar.
So basically Legkov, who was now banned for life from Olympics, and banned again by FIS (even if CAS decided otherwise) is clean
He is living most of time in Switzerland and Germany, he is and was tested most of time by everyone else but RUSADA yet he never tested positive. So based on this, he's clean and should be allowed to compete Thing is, this is simply complete political bs, and basically exactly what @scott43 wrote. There's as much doping elsewhere then it is in Russia. System might be different and in one places it's/might be supported by government in other places by companies (which also run government) so it's same thing. Another thing as everyone are picking on Icarus.... who was the guy who Fogel contacted first, and was pretty happy to help until he got scared? What was his position? So much about corrupt RUSADA and so rules compliant other NADAs
Thing is, there's noone in top 30 who would be clean. Maybe alpine skiing is a bit better, but I wouldn't keep my hopes too high on this. In xc, biathlon or any other indurance sport, there's simply noone from top guys or girls who would be clean... no matter what country they are from or if president of country is ex KGB agent or just some idiot with small hands... or wannabe instagram celebrity (like our president)
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Alpine skiing is so low on list of sports that noone really cares about it, that's why it's "under radar". Tennis on the other hand is on pair with football (sorry soccer for you guys), so there's so much money involved that governments get involved and protect things. Remember operation Puerto from few years ago? Majority of Fuentes clients were football and tennis players and not cyclists. Only names that came out of it are cyclists. There's not a single name, except few speculations, from football and tennis. And once few documents could be linked to real names from these sports, which based on rumors could basically put end to Spanish football, Spanish government/court declared documents should be destroyed and not being used for anything. When we are talking about "state sponsored doping" does this sound any different?
So basically Legkov, who was now banned for life from Olympics, and banned again by FIS (even if CAS decided otherwise) is clean
If he tested clean all along then you bet. You should give the athlete the benefit of the doubt. As posted already the ability to go back and retest old samples with new technology is an amazing step forward.
I don’t know enough about Legkov’s ban, but coverups and tampering are violations (and clean tests are null if such occurs as the “test” is no longer valid and clean) so the ban instituted.
“The IOC disciplinary panel did not have a positive doping test from Legkov but used evidence of cover-ups and tampering of sample bottles that was first gathered last year by World Anti-Doping Agency investigator Richard McLaren”
Based on WADA's code, Legkov (or any other out of 6 currently banned Russian xc skiers) didn't break a single chapter of WADA's Anti doping rule's violations (chapters 2.1 - 2.10). If someone else in WADA's accredited lab, which Sochi was at the time, did something with samples, it's really not athletes fault. Athlete has no option to control his sample, once it's handed to WADA or NADA controllers. So if Rodchenkov did switch samples, it's not athletes fault but really shitty handling of things inside of WADA and IOC. Everyone kind of dismiss this now as irrelevant, but WADA and IOC did accredited Sochi lab INCLUDING Rodchenkov, and now they pretend they had nothing to do with this and it's athletes fault if someone from THEIR own people screwed up. And like it or not, Rodchenkov's stuff should be taken with a grain of salt, and his personal agenda should be considered too, which is now kinda hard as currently it fits this war against Russian, so all is cool. Based on him, everyone were drinking same shit.... steroids mixed with alcohol. From 100m sprinters to marathon runners. I'm not some expert in doping, but I do know few things about it, and they are yet to find doping that works for everyone from weight lifters or 100m sprinters to endurance athletes.
PS: Again... only problem with Legkov sample are two samples from Sochi which are suppose to be tempered by someone and marks on b-sample bottle show they could be opened (no DNA tests we done as IOC didn't bother to do DNA test few 100km away where Legkov was training). All other test, made by everyone else then RUSADA were clean. But then again, based on IOC's own statement, their researcher figured out in 14 days how to open b-sample bottle without visible marks of tempering (they are still visible with forensic research, same as suppose to be swapped bottles from Sochi lab). If someone can do this in 14 days, is it possible Rodchenkov did same for whatever reason it was, and it's not that whole KGB was trying 6+months to figure this out and finally manage to open bottles without visible trace? I don't know, but one thing I do know is, that things are not so black and white as they are trying to paint them.
PS: Again... only problem with Legkov sample are two samples from Sochi which are suppose to be tempered by someone and marks on b-sample bottle show they could be opened (no DNA tests we done as IOC didn't bother to do DNA test few 100km away where Legkov was training). All other test, made by everyone else then RUSADA were clean. But then again, based on IOC's own statement, their researcher figured out in 14 days how to open b-sample bottle without visible marks of tempering (they are still visible with forensic research, same as suppose to be swapped bottles from Sochi lab). If someone can do this in 14 days, is it possible Rodchenkov did same for whatever reason it was, and it's not that whole KGB was trying 6+months to figure this out and finally manage to open bottles without visible trace? I don't know, but one thing I do know is, that things are not so black and white as they are trying to paint them.
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Somewhat ironic that the only alpine Olympic medal winner stripped definitely wasn't intentionally doping and whose failure was a result of major Olympic sponsor P&G's US formulation differung from the European.
World Cup? Not a chance that FIFA won't turn a blind eye until players are running on the pitch with needles in their arms.
Edit: an attempt to calm down the politically charged comments.
World Cup? Not a chance that FIFA won't turn a blind eye until players are running on the pitch with needles in their arms.
Edit: an attempt to calm down the politically charged comments.
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