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Muleski

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Basically, ALL the women have been so much more fun and enjoyable to watch, particularly since the 35M ski introduction, would you agree? At least we can relate to their skiing a bit more.

I happened to watch the Norwegian guys training for a few days at and after WC finals, when they were first getting on their 30M skis. What a difference. Granted they were free skiing, and skiing super open rhythmic courses, but it was nice to watch. Not as nice, IMO, as the best women GS skiers, though.

Thanks for posting that ^^^^^.
 

Doby Man

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Is it more relatable because they have less muscle mass than men? You may be correct with that isolation of factors. Regarding overall performance output, I would ay that the women's skiing is as equally inaccessible as the men's. When you compare the average difference in musculature of men and women to the average difference in speed/time, it appears as though the women have the better technique for the most part. So, to me, I agree they are more relatable as a model for better technique.

I am a big fan of of Veith’s and Brignone’s skiing. Brignone is more straight backed and powerful and Veith is more curvy backed and slick. I recently posted a few pics of Vaith’s “cat-ness” on an earlier thread. Being a technique junkie, my attention gravitates to the women’s GS. Among all the other accolades any skier at her level would receive, she has the most slinky mechanics and seamless flow I have ever seen in those gates. That said, it is easy to look at someone's outstanding WC results and say, "boy, they are the best", but, I'm going do it anyway.
 

Tricia

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Is it more relatable because they have less muscle mass than men?
Wow, you're waaaay overthinking that one.
The fact is, these women are incredibly athletic and interesting to watch because they aren't relatable.
 

Doby Man

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Wow, you're waaaay overthinking that one.
The fact is, these women are incredibly athletic and interesting to watch because they aren't relatable.

I'm simply asking muleski why he thinks the women's skiing is "more relatable". The term "relatable" is ambiguous in that context. Having read many of his posts, I might not have asked him if I didn't think he would have an insightful answer. Obviously we agree that the the women's skiing isn't any more relatable than the men's in terms of accessibility. But they are more relatable as a technical model for less athletically muscular skiers in terms of a performance more associated with technique than raw muscle. An important distinction for someone like me. When you take in all the points my post makes, it is clear that the props are going out to the women. To some, that may be considered overthinking, to me, it's about four seconds worth.

Edit: That sounded like hubris. Most of the stuff I write about are things that have been contemplated for decades and are merely recall. I understand how hearing things for the first time can feel like "overthinking" to the reader.
 
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SkiSpeed

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Tessa Worley rocks as well and the Italian Women's GS squad is deep top to bottom, great skiers.
 

Tricia

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I won't speak for Muleski, but fore me they're more relatable because there is a sense of fun, and because there are so many really incredible women coming in strong.
You see more of them in the public, doing more with charities, acting as ambassadors for the sport.

I'm not seeing that as much with the guys, but maybe they're out there and I'm missing it because I'm focused on the women.

As for the comment that the women have much less mass than men, perhaps true on some level, but I'd venture a guess that most of "those" female athletes could pick almost any one of the guys on this site and snap them like a twig.
 
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Swede

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Re 'relatable'. It's better looking skiing compared to the men's r35-"freakshow" of yesteryear. Women's skiing in WC GS is something you can aspire to, wanting to do yourself. With that said, not easy to do. These women are incredible individuals -- physically and mentally. I had the oportunity to ski a few laps with Jessika Lindell Vikarby a few years ago when she visited my daughters squad on a camp for some guest coaching. This was just after she quit racing, so she was almost an active WC:er at that point. I've written it before, you think you can ski, but you can't. The speed, the strength ... it's on a go nuts level.
 

PisteOff

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Sofia Goggia is a favorite of mine, and her teammates Curtoni, Brignone, Bassino are all excellent skiers and can podium on any given day. Italy is very deep indeed, but Goggia is tenacious and fearless. If you recall the Italians swept the podium in GS at Aspen this past season. I'm stoked to be going to Killington this year.
 

Muleski

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I'm really confused by @Doby Man's post, here, and on another thread about "relatability", "accessability", etc. Perhaps I'm just not that bright, or don't approach so many parts of the sport with an intellectual component.

The thread started with @Swede, a frequent poster on race subjects just mentioning that he really liked the way a skier skied. Which led to my comment that ALL of the WC women are fun to watch. Let's say that I have watched more than a few, have actaully skied with more than a few, etc. Watching world class women ski GS has ALWAYS been a pleasure, and if there is one gender, and one alpine discipline that any of us could make some general and casual observations about, and perhaps carry into our own skiing, It has always been GS, and it's always been the women. It's not new. Thirty plus years ago, many coaches and instructors recognized that Tamara McKinney was one to watch and maybe even emulate a touch. She still rips, BTW.

As far as all of this talk about body mass, etc., I get confused as to why. ALL of the women on the WC have been either exceptional athletes...let's say top one half of one percent, or incredibly well conditioned, strong, or a mixture of both. They are all strong enough to work the skis which are, BTW, in many cases hand built for them for that purpose. The best have skis built for specific hills. Some are incredibly strong and tall, with great levers. Three of the best are very short. Tessa Worley is tiny.

The guys come in all sizes, too.

I really don't think that there is much at all related to even women's GS that relates to our skiing. Perhaps for the very best 11/10 male skiers who are on steep wide perfectly groomed and manicured hills. Maybe. Or for people who still train as top level masters. Maybe some recently former very high level racers. You can watch, be in awe, but they are not us.

Our daughter was what I call a "pretty high level" racer. NorAM level, NCAA captain, a lot of international races. When she was in it, if we free skied on groomed stuff, I really could not comfortably keep up with speed, the turn shape, the control, etc. No chance. And, "I'm good with my skiing" in the words of Stenmark.

When I have skied with women who are either on the WC, or a season removed, on similar hills......they are just on a different plane. Very gently touch, big edge angles, at about 50mph. Mind blowing. So is that "relatable" to me? Huh?

I'd also suggest that if you ever get a chance to see a real WC race hill, mid season, particularly in Europe, you will be even more impressed. A truly injected surface is like a skating rink tipped on it's side. I have seen experienced skiers, good ones, who are race crew volunteers who have been terrified to side slip them, let alone ski them.

And the top men? Yeah, I guess relatively speaking they are less relatable. In terms of the joy of watching them, it should be a LOT better on the new skis. On race day, it was really ugly on the 35M skis. Watch video of the pitch at Soelden, or the Gran Riss, and other steep hills. It was impossible for those guys to link together, IMO, even three good clean arcs. They were snapping off line, stivoting, and doing anything else possible to charge and hang on. And their injection is more brutal than the women's.

So, yeah, may point was that watching the women is fun. As others have mentioned, some of these teams are SO deep, and they all look great. It looks to me like skiing should.

If you think about when Ligety was first "Mr. GS", he was able to ski his 27M skis arc to arc, with great precision. He actually was making arcs, all the way down, and entering and exiting his turns right where he wanted. Able to have a very quick switch. And yes, he was smart enough and worked hard to get his 35M Heads mastered ahead of the rest of the field on their new skis. But it was ugly, and it really took a physical toll on these guys. It sure as heck was nothing that we should have tried to emulate.

I like watching it. And I know enough to know what's fast. does it relate to us......not so much. If anything its the women, IMO. There is one male GS skier who I really like to watch race, and only when he's in a section of a course were he can actually ski it.......Alexis Pinturault. Free skiing and training in a more open rhythmic course, they are ALL great to watch.

Should be more pleasurable from now on.
 
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PisteOff

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I prefer the women.....:huh:

Seriously, I think the competition is a bit better, or tighter should I say. Yes, I think the move back to 30's will improve the Men's GS. I wonder if Hirscher will be able to dominate now. His incredible athleticism gave him an advantage on the 35's. Ligety getting back in the saddle will be fun as well. With all of that said, I'm still a bigger fan of the women's circuit.....must be the speed suits. :drool:
 

K2 Rat

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Personally, I just like women more than men, period. But there is nothing wrong with liking men ! :)

As far as WC races, I try to watch everything. If I I had to chose however, here is what I would watch:

- Speed : Men .... bigger flights, tougher courses, more exciting, etc ( although I do like to watch LV win !)
- SL : Men ... depth and quality of field is much better and I love some of the classic venues: Kitzbuhel , Schladming, Adelboden, etc. Although, I love to watch MS ski SL and win !! However, she is just so far ahead of the field that the races sometimes are not as exciting ( although I never get tired of her winning !) What did she have .... 13 straight wins or so and a lot with huge margins. Is it that she is just so good (yes!) or is also that the current state of women's SL is not that high (maybe) ? But if I was going to slow down and study a SL run with kids I coach, I would hands down use MS.
- GS : Women .... for the reasons already pointed out, I enjoy watching skiing with clean arcs by the women more that a series of stivots by the men on 35 meter skis. Of course, this could all change with the new men's skis. And I have liked watching the women in GS, because I do find it more relatable to my skiing. When I am laying clean arcs on my FIS cheater GS skis on perfect corduroy snow down intermediate terrain, I am thinking I MUST be looking like these women. Not exactly, but it feels like it and I can relate to that ! :)
 
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SkiSpeed

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As far as WC races, I try to watch everything. If I I had to chose however, here is what I would watch:

Speed Men: DH/SG
Speed Women: DH/SG
Women's GS
Men's GS

I tend to pass on SL!....jury is out for me on the team events, still adjusting...
 

K2 Rat

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Speed Men: DH/SG
Speed Women: DH/SG
Women's GS
Men's GS

I tend to pass on SL!....jury is out for me on the team events, still adjusting...


I hear ya. I have been to 3 Kitzbuhel Hahnenkamm downhills and nothing can beat that race! However, I think the Men's night SL at Schladming is one that I have to check off the list soon...
 

Doby Man

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There is one study that suggests: “The women were approximately 52% and 66% as strong as the men in the upper and lower body respectively.” (WC athletes are much stronger than the sample group but, considering that the men and women train as hard, that is mute.) Yet, when training on the same courses, women are only about 5% slower than the men. For skiers like Vonn, it is even less than that. “Where Vonn loses ground is at the exit, which is mainly a function of strength. Svindal is six feet three inches, 220 pounds; Vonn is five feet 10 inches, 170 pounds.” (DH) By a loosely applied concept of elimination, this “math” may be considered to represent a significantly higher technical ability of the women when you break down ability (speed/time) between technique and strength/muscle mass. This technical advantage translates to more aggressive lines than the men except for perhaps the turn exit. If we study exactly why women are faster in turn phases one and two, we may find an advantage for men if the woman's advantage is not due to qualities that are exclusive to the female gender. However, if it is a matter elemental to line/turn shaping, then perhaps not. Yet, not as much technical, this is tactical aggression that may hint towards a psychological component. Are there psychological components exclusive to the female gender that relates to aggression? Biologically, among a majority of species, males are typically more aggressive both physically and psychologically. Just perhaps not in regard to steering alpine skis down the hill (and protecting their young). Perhaps producing the sound of a baby crying at the finish line might be the trick. However, not for men. That would probably make them far slower. :) The versatility requirements of the giant slalom, especially in terms of aggressive lines, further enhances this corollary. So, for those technical junkies that like watching women’s GS more than than anything else, this could be a reason.
 

Muleski

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I hear ya. I have been to 3 Kitzbuhel Hahnenkamm downhills and nothing can beat that race! However, I think the Men's night SL at Schladming is one that I have to check off the list soon...

Schladming is beyond wild. Not that Kitz "isn't". Both just nutty. And absolutely worth it.
 

4ster

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Great video, thanks!
I wish I spoke Italian, the subtitles are okay I guess but they are just a translation. I would luv to hear & understand her real words from a much More exciting & animated language.
 

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