Men's FIS SL Skis?

[MJski]

Hey, could someone explain the differences in characteristics between the 165cm slalom skis? I'm looking at the 2016-2017 line. I'm interested in how stiff/soft or lively/dull they are for brands like Rossignol, Fischer, Dynastar (are Rossignol and Dynastar essentially the same?), Head, and Atomic. I will be using them for competitive racing in the midwest. Unfortunately there are no race ski demos as far as I am aware so I won't have the chance to test them before I buy.
Thanks for the help.

 

[Philpug]

Paging @ScotsSkier to the white courtesy phone.

 

[K2 Rat]

The answer you are not looking for is that they are all stiff and lively. But I do think Dynastar and Rossi are the same. I coach and so only free ski, but I typically ski on 165 FIS SL and have not noticed too much diff in brands. Except I think Heads I had a year ago seemed very stiff. Rossi seems to have more women on them. Does that mean they are softer? Maybe and Hendrik is a slight guy anyway.

I will be interested also if someone can provide Info on the brands and how they differ.

 

[ScotsSkier]

Yes Rossi and dynastar are the same. The Rossi/dynastar is changed this year in the 165. Iirc 2mm narrower in the shovel and the plate moved forward slightly. Mine are being delivered next week so I can give you a comparison against the 17s I have. They are slightly softer than the atomic and head but at this level, as K2rat said, it is small degrees of difference. In fact it is less about stiffness than characteristics/feel. The head feels the most damp if you just free-ski them ...but...I found that forme they were quickest in gates when I switched to them a couple of seasons ago (I was on blizzard and dynastar Prior to that). They are all top class skis though and I have some of my athletes on all of them. Before giving some further pointers it would help if you gave us some stats on yourself - age, weight, height, race experience (and points if you have them) and level of racing you are competing in as this will impact what the sets are

 

[Eleeski]

@ScotsSkier I'm not the OP but this is relevant to me as well. I'd love to race (I learned how to ski by running gates on my college team - but I was and still am slow) but my primary use is for bumps on firm days. I loved my Volkl Race Tiger SLs 165 when they were new but they are pretty dead now with mediocre edge hold. I demoed some Head SLs (they joked that they were Bode Miller's skis) some years ago and absolutely loved them! I sought out the boilerplate just to enjoy the edge authority. A few winters ago, I rented Head SLs in Europe and wasn't nearly as happy - they felt like my dead Race Tigers. I borrowed some Rossi SLs a couple years ago and wasn't impressed. So what am I feeling? Do the skis break down? Are the skis for the masses that different from serious race skis (and how do we know which is which)? Or am I just getting older and worse?

Although "I am the best skier on the mountain!" I am the slowest skier as well. No one can ski the zipper line on West Face as slow as me. I do love to turn and rock the bumps. I love quick lively skis with edges I can trust. 62, 170, 5' 10", skied a couple Masters races and got beaten by the girls (hey they were good!).

I'm seriously considering the Head SLs you are selling.

I was doing OK until this: I'm a weight freak. I love light equipment. My soft snow skis are Goode ultralight skis. I build and compete effectively on my design super light waterskis. However, the "Bode Miller" Heads that I loved were the heaviest skis I've ridden - hmmm. That does beg the question, would lighter bindings (and a flat mount) radically change things?

Last question: how do old casual racers get time on a slalom course?

Thanks,
Eric

 

[Primoz]

It's not so much about brand, but about models of each ski. Before, when I was getting Fischer skis, I was getting them from friend who's racer was skiing super stiff skis. Then he changed to different racer, who was skiing super soft skis, so I had few pairs of steel like skis and few pairs of soft ones... all same ski and same company, but different model. Now I'm on Rossi, and the guy who originally skis these skis is more on medium part of Rossi range. While these are are sort of in between soft and stiff in Rossi range, they still tend to go into softer are of Fischer skis. So while overall stiffness is a bit dependent on company, it mostly depends on model you are using. And then it's personal preference what you really like. Personally for SL I prefer a bit stiffer ski (still not Bode's monster I have been skiing once, and felt like ski build from ptex on bottom, nothing else then 1.5cm of titanal with Head topsheet on top), while for GS I prefer the ones on softer side, as they feel more live for me.

 

[Swede]

Atomic and Salomon the same too. Don't know about Blizzard and Nordica, but they too used to be the same. You can get a FIS race ski delivered in different flexes. I have a pair of Salomon 15/16, and the standard Sollie LAB FIS SL available to the race community came in three diffrent flexes (same w Atomic afaik): soft -- medium -- stiff. I have the "soft" version. Rating can be found on Sollie and Atomic as hand written numbers on the tail -- 38/28 on my pair. Lower numbers mean stiffer. This is a fairly "gentle" pair, but still takes |quite] some effort to ski. Not cruisers. Have skied a couple of other SL:s of various brands and they've all been needed to be driven pretty hard ... So depending on your technique and strength, try to get a flex accordingly.

 

[Philpug]

I'm seriously considering the Head SLs you are selling.

I was doing OK until this: I'm a weight freak. I love light equipment. My soft snow skis are Goode ultralight skis. I build and compete effectively on my design super light waterskis. However, the "Bode Miller" Heads that I loved were the heaviest skis I've ridden - hmmm. That does beg the question, would lighter bindings (and a flat mount) radically change things?

Last question: how do old casual racers get time on a slalom course?

Thanks,
Eric

Much of what you are feeling in weight is actually the bindings. Most "mens" SL skis worth their salt are set up with a 16 or 20 all metal housed binding. Now for your application you will be able to get the performance you need with a 12 DIN, Atomic X12 VAR, Look SPX12 Rockerflex, Marker X-Cell12, even a Tyrolia EVO11.These will save you a significant amount of weight, up to 1,000g/pr.

 

[HeluvaSkier]

As mentioned by others Rossignol=Dynastar, Blizzard=Nordica, Atomic=Salomon.

I've skied most of the SL ski offerings out there at various points in their life cycles... I absolutely hate the new forward mounted Rossignol (skied a WC version last year - worst SL ski I've been on) and I'd caution anyone interested in turning to stay away from the black top sheet Head i.SL RD.

The skis I like the most in this category are Fischer and Atomic across all the available flexes. My most favorite... black top sheet (round tip, not hook tip) stiff flex Fischer WC SL.

 

[Dwight]

https://pugski.com/threads/race-ski-round-2-non-fis-slalom-skis.3477/

 

[oldschoolskier]

I’ve got a set of older Dynastar and had a set of Nordica SLR’s

The Dynastar are are definitely a fun and easy ski to ski in full race version. As an example my daughter at 13 loved them and found the perfect and she’s only a low intermediate. For me the just pop and perform. The SLR’s me the other hand also performed however required a very aggressive technique for performance. One other thing to note was the I found the Dynastars handled better at the top end speed 45mph+ , the Nordica’s where just scary.

BTW I got the Dynastars for ScotsSkier, and if he gives advise listen. If he offers you skis buy them!

 

[razie]

Atomic and Fischer are very lively, Head is damp and Rossi/Dynastar in between. Volkl is super-damp.

 

[ScotsSkier]

As mentioned by others Rossignol=Dynastar, Blizzard=Nordica, Atomic=Salomon.

I've skied most of the SL ski offerings out there at various points in their life cycles... I absolutely hate the new forward mounted Rossignol (skied a WC version last year - worst SL ski I've been on) and I'd caution anyone interested in turning to stay away from the black top sheet Head i.SL RD.

The skis I like the most in this category are Fischer and Atomic across all the available flexes. My most favorite... black top sheet (round tip, not hook tip) stiff flex Fischer WC SL.

Too funny Greg! Sounds like we are almost diametrically opposed on slaloms! I am not a fan of the Fischers, just always felt too lifeless for me!. Will be interesting to see what this year's Rossi is like, I haven t been on them, was planning to stay with Head but won a free pair of Rossis - of course it ends up not free because meant i had to buy a second pair!! . Have heard they ski a bit different but from the feedback I got on them they should match my style. Failing that I also have a pair of last years Rossis - the real deal "Team" ones with the black sidewall (when my Rossi rep saw them he was "how the f*** were you able to get these!) - so will be able to do some comparos of them.

Interesting also on the Heads. I have never found any issues getting them to turn. They do like to be in the fall-line and certainly they dont initially feel that they launch into the turn like say the Blizzard/Nordica but i found them quicker in back to back testing in gates which is why I switched. Granted, all the (6) pairs I had were euro/factory supplied (my trainers still have somebody called Cohee marked on them). A couple of people here (KarlB +??) have bought some of them form me and seem to have liked them. As Primoz pointed out, the sour e and provenance of the skis is VERY important. And the real deal ones are qusually quite a bit different from the normal "race-stock" At a minimum the WC/team skis are normally a year ahead of what you find in the retail race-stock in my experience

Just really shows how slalom skis come down to what sort of "feel" you like from them and how we can get different impressions. Also may be that there is 30+years difference in age between us! An old guy like me does not really want a super stiff slalom!! On the same theme just noticed Razie posting he thought the Volkls were super damp. I felt exactly the opposite! To me they felt like they wanted to go into the turn just too easily which menatmore effort to get them back into the fall-line when in gates! Go figure!

 

[James]

A few seasons ago I was tuning skis with an Ncaa racer who was using both Head and Blizzard. We happened to have both SL skis against the wall. The mount point was very different. Prob 2 cm. Can't remember which was further back. Head I think but not sure. I think that was the year Head started running the top metal sheet all the way up the tip. Before it stopped near the end of the shovel. I recall he much preferred the version all the way up.

So a lot of the difference was likely due to mount point I suspect.

One could call Croc in Colo and find out the flex differences. - edit I looked and it appears Denver Sports Lab in Golden no longer carries Croc. So, maybe no longer available in US?
http://www.denversportslab.com/

Fis Slalom skis with plates and bindings are about the heaviest skis one can get. Don't forget they have to withstand the gate slamming down on them. The speed of that gate coming down can be in the hundreds of mph.

 

[ScotsSkier]

@ScotsSkier I'm not the OP but this is relevant to me as well. I'd love to race (I learned how to ski by running gates on my college team - but I was and still am slow) but my primary use is for bumps on firm days. I loved my Volkl Race Tiger SLs 165 when they were new but they are pretty dead now with mediocre edge hold. I demoed some Head SLs (they joked that they were Bode Miller's skis) some years ago and absolutely loved them! I sought out the boilerplate just to enjoy the edge authority. A few winters ago, I rented Head SLs in Europe and wasn't nearly as happy - they felt like my dead Race Tigers. I borrowed some Rossi SLs a couple years ago and wasn't impressed. So what am I feeling? Do the skis break down? Are the skis for the masses that different from serious race skis (and how do we know which is which)? Or am I just getting older and worse?

Although "I am the best skier on the mountain!" I am the slowest skier as well. No one can ski the zipper line on West Face as slow as me. I do love to turn and rock the bumps. I love quick lively skis with edges I can trust. 62, 170, 5' 10", skied a couple Masters races and got beaten by the girls (hey they were good!).

I'm seriously considering the Head SLs you are selling.

I was doing OK until this: I'm a weight freak. I love light equipment. My soft snow skis are Goode ultralight skis. I build and compete effectively on my design super light waterskis. However, the "Bode Miller" Heads that I loved were the heaviest skis I've ridden - hmmm. That does beg the question, would lighter bindings (and a flat mount) radically change things?

Last question: how do old casual racers get time on a slalom course?

Thanks,
Eric

Hi Eric, yes, I suspect you would like these heads! And yes, the real stuff is different from the normal "race-stock" . WRT time in gates. The Sqauw masters program does daily drop ins @$100/day (Full program is ~$2600 IIRC). I think they run gates in the morning and free-ski in the afternoon.

In my program at Mt. Rose, drop ins (Morning session) are either $40 or $50 (I am not sure if we raised the price this year). The full season program is $599. WRT weight, see below, most of the FIS slaloms come in around the same weight on the ski itself (and they re all pretty similar in construction). Any noticeable wight difference will usually come down to the plate/binding combo.

Much of what you are feeling in weight is actually the bindings. Most "mens" SL skis worth their salt are set up with a 16 or 20 all metal housed binding. Now for your application you will be able to get the performance you need with a 12 DIN, Atomic X12 VAR, Look SPX12 Rockerflex, Marker X-Cell12, even a Tyrolia EVO11.These will save you a significant amount of weight, up to 1,000g/pr.

Good points Phil, the binding weight can make a big difference in the feel. While on a GS I dont worry about the weight, i feel it straight away on a slalom ski.
Here are some reference points on the Rossi/Dynastar race bindings (weight per pair)

Rossi SPX15 Rockerflex - 2800g
Rossi 18 Rockerflex - 3600g
i.e almost a pound different perks in weight.

Previous generation Rossi Axial 2 MFX15 - 3000g
This makes sense as the new 15 Rockerflex has more plastic than the previous axial2
When i was on Dynastar slaloms in the past, I switched them all to 15s from 18s as I could feel the difference in weights.

The weight change may align with the 12-16 jump or in some cases the >15(or16) jump. On the Atomic Xvar, I think the current 12 and 16 are the same whereas the 18, 19, 20 are all heavier with more metal, The rossi/look as above changes from the 15 to the 18 (the 12 and 14 are lighter still since they have the different (plastic) toe.
For Head/Fischer/tyrolia in the RD series the 16s are supposed to be lighter then the 18/20 but IIRC last time I weighed them they were actually the same. I need to recheck. For Marker Xcell the 12 and 16 are the same but the 18 and 24 are heavier with a lot more metal. Again i need to recheck but for the older Marker Comps, the 12 and 14 are both lighter than the 16 which is lighter than the 20 and 30.

 

[razie]

@Eleeski - Head i.SL.RD feel very different across the years.

Skied the older models, 5 years ago and they were awesome, the white and red top sheet. Then the black topsheet, they messed it up for me, too stiff tip. Now, the new white one is again nice, a more progressive tip, but still overall damp. I think the nicest.

But your mileage may vary - ski choice is determined a lot of how you feel on it and for racers, which is faster - a function of how you ski etc.

Also, the binding mounting location can change a ski's feel significantly.

 

[Swede]

I was doing OK until this: I'm a weight freak. I love light equipment. My soft snow skis are Goode ultralight skis. I build and compete effectively on my design super light waterskis. However, the "Bode Miller" Heads that I loved were the heaviest skis I've ridden - hmmm. That does beg the question, would lighter bindings (and a flat mount) radically change things?

Last question: how do old casual racers get time on a slalom course?

Thanks,
Eric

Hmm, I have not found weight to be of any significance on a race ski. Just doesn't impact the skiing. Pain to carry though.
The ski is only 50%. Plate and binding is the rest of the "feel". Depends on how much rigidity/torsional stiffnes you need. But I have never seen anyone mount bindings directly on a FIS SL. Somehow I think that you want a plate. Don't be afraid of the weight. They are super nimble and quick as hell from edge to edge.

 

[K2 Rat]

Also, the binding mounting location can change a ski's feel significantly.

When Jimmy Cochran was on the U Ski team, I talked to him in the summer and he said he did a lot of equipment testing that Spring. I asked what brands and he said, "No, only my brand and it was mostly on binding placement" . I would like to test some binding placement, but kinda a pain. Bring back the ESS VAR !!

 

[MJski]

Thanks to all who responded. I had an account on epicski before it shut down and the help here has been much better. I figured things were pretty close between manufacturers and no matter what I get I don't think I will end up with a bad product. I know when I moved up to a fis women's ski the power and energy inside the ski was amazing and I'm hoping it will be the same for the men's ski. I'm looking at the 2016-2017 dynastar/rossignol skis because most of my teammates ski them and seem to like them.

Edit: I thought I should mention that I'm in the midwest so I'll be skiing on hard man made snow.

 

[Philpug]

When Jimmy Cochran was on the U Ski team, I talked to him in the summer and he said he did a lot of equipment testing that Spring. I asked what brands and he said, "No, only my brand and it was mostly on binding placement" . I would like to test some binding placement, but kinda a pain. Bring back the ESS VAR !!

The Atomic X20 EGA can more fore and aft like the old ESS V/A/R, not suprisingly. Most race plates are now pre drilled so you can move for and aft. Takes about 5 minutes to do with a power driver.