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JPM

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And don’t forget the Four Seasons hotel that is going in between Mayflower and Heber City on the Alterra land too

More Socratic questions

Who proposed a Four Seasons hotel for that property?
Who actually owns that property?
Who has been buying up that area ?
Look East 10022.
Do the former owners have any property left to sell?
 

Philpug

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Like Pugski? ;) Contrived, made up words are part of a lot of company names. :)
I thought that might come up, we didn't come up with "Pugski", the community did. It was not the result of ten's of thousands in markering dollars poured into focus groups and marketing companies. ;) . At least we have "ski" in the name. :)
 

Muleski

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I would bet the farm that KSL will not take this public "in a year or two."

True, every PE firm, and every PE investment eventually has a liquidity event. Much more common that an IPO is flipping the position to another PE firm. The upside of an IPO has to be very compelling. In this industry, we have MTN who has had success.

I've been told that a liquidity event may be 10 years out. Or more. This is not a normal PE deal. I have owned two businesss with PE partners. Like clockwork, we had an event every five years. And a new PE partner. I'm now associated with a PE firm, doing some consulting.

I get the sense that a lot of people are jumping to their own conclusions about everything to do with HCC/KSL and Alterra.

This is going to take some time. Years. Yep, there will be some real estate development. Some retail/restaurant and hotel development. It will be entirely dependent on the property and the opportunity. This is NOT like the days of Les Otten building a Grand Summit Hotel, and operating it, at every single resort, just because....valid business case or not.

I will say that some of the MCP resorts are a nice potential shopping list.

Before these guys every sell, they are going to create a lot of value. Those with money in this have a clear vision of how. High end, gold standard, best in class resorts. The best. Where people are not fixed on low price.

Obviously many feel it's Epic and MTN 2.0

Or that they are going to keep all of these properties, and not acquire others. The have an almost unlimited supply of cash. They want more and start a fund, with their current investors. Unusual, even in their business. They make money, and this is their niche.

The last thing this crew wants is the BS of being a part of a public company. No need to sell yet, no need to do it to get capital.

This is not like any other ski consolidator, past or present. Everybody wants to know whst's in it for them, having been conditioned by the Epic Pass.

Let this unfold. It's interesting.
 

coskigirl

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I thought that might come up, we didn't come up with "Pugski", the community did. It was not the result of ten's of thousands in markering dollars poured into focus groups and marketing companies. ;) . At least we have "ski" in the name. :)

You know I'm just teasing about the Pugski part right? I could have used many other options like WalMart, Costco, Verizon (a merger of the words veritas and horizon) etc. I think maybe this population is more sensitive as we are looking at it from the ski industry point of view. The actual full name is Alterra Mountain Company so they do indicate in the name that they are mountain focused. If they are looking at building value in other aspects of the business such as summer offerings, real estate, etc it doesn't make sense for them to chose a name that infers only skiing (or snowsports).
 

LKLA

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I would bet the farm that KSL will not take this public "in a year or two."

True, every PE firm, and every PE investment eventually has a liquidity event. Much more common that an IPO is flipping the position to another PE firm. The upside of an IPO has to be very compelling. In this industry, we have MTN who has had success.

I've been told that a liquidity event may be 10 years out. Or more. This is not a normal PE deal. I have owned two businesss with PE partners. Like clockwork, we had an event every five years. And a new PE partner. I'm now associated with a PE firm, doing some consulting.

I get the sense that a lot of people are jumping to their own conclusions about everything to do with HCC/KSL and Alterra.

This is going to take some time. Years. Yep, there will be some real estate development. Some retail/restaurant and hotel development. It will be entirely dependent on the property and the opportunity. This is NOT like the days of Les Otten building a Grand Summit Hotel, and operating it, at every single resort, just because....valid business case or not.

I will say that some of the MCP resorts are a nice potential shopping list.

Before these guys every sell, they are going to create a lot of value. Those with money in this have a clear vision of how. High end, gold standard, best in class resorts. The best. Where people are not fixed on low price.

Obviously many feel it's Epic and MTN 2.0

Or that they are going to keep all of these properties, and not acquire others. The have an almost unlimited supply of cash. They want more and start a fund, with their current investors. Unusual, even in their business. They make money, and this is their niche.

The last thing this crew wants is the BS of being a part of a public company. No need to sell yet, no need to do it to get capital.

This is not like any other ski consolidator, past or present. Everybody wants to know whst's in it for them, having been conditioned by the Epic Pass.

Let this unfold. It's interesting.

As someone who works on Wall Street with PE firms and knows at least six of the partners at KSL, I would not be so sure about most of what you are assuming. I’ll leave it at that.

Lots of people talking wishful thinking or what they think it should be rather than being informed. And a lot makes good sense - just not reality.

In the end, unless you have money at stake in this (which my firm does), the details behind Alterra will matter little - the name, if they go public, if they raise debt, if they buy or sell mountains for x or y multiple. All that matters for 99% of the people is that they offer a compelling pass and a good product on the hill.

Vail is public and so is Peak Resorts and people like what each offers. Okemo is owned by a REIT and people like it. Aspen is owned by a “family office” and people like it. Whiteface is owned by NY state and people like it. Mad River is a cooperative and people love it. Jackson Hole is privately owned and people love it.
 
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Muleski

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As someone who works on Wall Street with PE firms and knows at least six of the partners at KSL, I would not be so sure about most of what you are assuming. I’ll leave it at that.

Lots of people talking wishful thinking or what they think it should be rather than being informed. And a lot makes good sense - just not reality.

In the end, unless you have money at stake in this (which my firm does), the details behind Alterra will matter little - the name, if they go public, if they raise debt, if they buy or sell mountains for x or y multiple. All that matters for 99% of the people is that they offer a compelling pass and a good product on the hill.

Vail is public and so is Peak Resorts and people like what each offers. Okemo is owned by a REIT and people like it. Aspen is owned by a “family office” and people like it. Whiteface is owned by NY state and people like it. Mad River is a cooperative and people love it. Jackson Hole is privately owned and people love it.

Just for the sake of explaining my "interest", it's both very personal, and it involves a decent personal and family stake. Let's say I am reasonably well informed for good reason.

This is not going public in one or two years.
Are they eventually going to have a liquidity event that will make us all happy? That's my expectation. It's going to take time. That's what I am told, in conversation.

Any other discussion in this forum, about KSL details is not coming from me. I'm out. Getting too close to too many homes!
 

New2

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Socratic questions.

Think backside.
Who is the biggest player around Mayflower?
Where are they from?
How much land do they own?
What is the plan?

All right, I'll take a stab at it... though there's a whole lot I don't know, so anyone who can fill in gaps will definitely be able to move the conversation forward :)

Who is the biggest player around Mayflower?
a) Deer Valley Resort Co (which, as I understand it, is now part of Alterra)
b) United Park City Mines (part of Talisker, I believe)
c) Extell (looks like a big-time New York City developer that I've never heard of before)

Where are they from?
a) Wherever private equity people come from? HQ is Denver
b) Canada
c) New York City

How much land do they own?
much :)

What is the plan?
Subdivide & sell. Or subdivide, build, and rent/sell. Probably a combination of both. Maybe Extell helps drive big-shot New Yorkers to Mayflower?

Notably absent... Royal Street (which, as I understand it, is the overarching corporate entity which previously owned Deer Valley and still owns Solitude) no longer seems to own land in the area. Looks to me like all the DV real estate went to Alterra. On the other hand, Royal Street still owns the Guardsman Pass property under PCMR's Jupiter lift and where a potential PCMR-Brighton interconnect would pass through.

I wonder why Solitude was never included in the deal originally or now? It would give Alterra more traction in Utah to have two resorts there.

I don't think there's really much synergy (or potential synergy) between Solitude and Deer Valley. In terms of "traction in Utah," they're both pretty much at the bottom of the heap, and happy to stay there--both resorts are focused more on destination visitors and second-home-owners than catering to locals. And the "oh by the way, the same company owns Solitude" sales pitch probably wasn't really increasing demand for Deer Valley real estate, and wouldn't increase it going forward.

Also I think there's an element of different properties in different spots looked at by different companies with different priorities. For Lessing Stern/Royal Street, Deer Valley was a tremendous success story, and continuing ownership would mean continuing to devote significant resources to real estate development without much potential for a new transformative success. They sold high in the economic cycle, walking away able to boast about what they built and with a (big, I'm sure) pile of cash, letting Stern focus on Solitude and his own private equity/incubator efforts. Alterra bought (and no doubt paid a nice premium for) a resort that fits squarely in the high-end market niche they've been telling investors they're targeting, and now they get to run with the big development plans.

Solitude, on the other hand, was a recent acquisition for Stern/Royal Street, and whatever potential they see in it has yet to be realized. Presumably KSL and Aspen both had the opportunity to kick the tires at Solitude a couple years back, and at that point at least they weren't interested in paying as much as Stern/Royal Street. I don't think anything's changed fundamentally in that equation--Stern/Royal Street still value Solitude more highly than Alterra, and there was no pressing need to bundle the two, so there was no Solitude deal. Alterra isn't particularly looking for "traction in Utah," but if they can get another of the resorts that fits the high-end, unique-experience profile they're trying to build (Alta, Snowbird, Snowbasin, or PCMR), they'll likely go for it. And if none of that pans out, then maybe they'll take another look at Solitude a few years from now... but neither party's in a hurry right now to do a Solitude deal.
 
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Started at 53

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I and worried about over expansion creating too many people fishing my (new to me) home waters of the Middle Provo River! That really bothers me, there is more to this move than skiing for me. That river is 1 1/2 miles from my new location.
 

DanoT

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I and worried about over expansion creating too many people fishing my (new to me) home waters of the Middle Provo River! That really bothers me, there is more to this move than skiing for me. That river is 1 1/2 miles from my new location.

Don't worry. At most resorts the second homes are empty 80% of the time, or something like that.:)
 

Wasatchman

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I am enjoying the discussion on this thread. Unlike most, however, I am concerned that the formation of Alterra will ultimately not be good for skiers. My experience is that industry structures that are dominated by just a few entities do not end up well for the consumer. In fact, it's downright terrible for the consumer (and employees) as consolidation erodes competition. Vail was one thing, because even Vail haters arguably could see the benefit that their cheap pricing structure was positive in the sense to make sure "higher quality" independents didn't get too out of hand with their pricing.

With Alterra entering the fray, I am concerned you now have a massive consolidation wave where North America (and perhaps globally in the near future as well?) become consolidated into just a handful of entities. I'm interested to see what season passes Alterra offers. Regardless, my experience tells me the end result of significant industry consolidation is almost always bad for the customer with very few exceptions. Maybe the bad effects of more ski industry consolidation won't immediately be felt next year, but make no mistake- it's coming and it won't be good.

I would consider it an absolute travesty if Alta, Snowbird, Jackson Hole, etc gets swallowed up by these corporations. But as many are speculating, I fear more consolidation in the industry seems likely, and that's absolutely terrible news to me.
 

Wasatchman

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I and worried about over expansion creating too many people fishing my (new to me) home waters of the Middle Provo River! That really bothers me, there is more to this move than skiing for me. That river is 1 1/2 miles from my new location.

Overpopulation is not fun! You're not the only new guy moving into town :beercheer: Welcome, but I couldn't help smiling at the irony of the new guy just moving to town complaining about overexpansion. Worse yet than what is happening in Utah, think 7 billion people on the planet and growing exponentially. Enjoy it while you can!
 

DanoT

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I am enjoying the discussion on this thread. Unlike most, however, I am concerned that the formation of Alterra will ultimately not be good for skiers. My experience is that industry structures that are dominated by just a few entities do not end up well for the consumer. In fact, it's downright terrible for the consumer (and employees) as consolidation erodes competition. Vail was one thing, because even Vail haters arguably could see the benefit that their cheap pricing structure was positive in the sense to make sure "higher quality" independents didn't get too out of hand with their pricing.

With Alterra entering the fray, I am concerned you now have a massive consolidation wave where North America (and perhaps globally in the near future as well?) become consolidated into just a handful of entities. I'm interested to see what season passes Alterra offers. Regardless, my experience tells me the end result of significant industry consolidation is almost always bad for the customer with very few exceptions. Maybe the bad effects of more ski industry consolidation won't immediately be felt next year, but make no mistake- it's coming and it won't be good.

I would consider it an absolute travesty if Alta, Snowbird, Jackson Hole, etc gets swallowed up by these corporations. But as many are speculating, I fear more consolidation in the industry seems likely, and that's absolutely terrible news to me.

I am more optimistic based on the fact that part of Alterra ownership are the owners of Aspen.and Aspen gets it. Aspen is very well run and has well paid (for the ski industry) generally happy employees. Not being a public company means they can take the time to do things right, may charge customers a premium but deliver high value (read modern infrastructure, uncrowded slopes, superior customer service, attention to details)....all just speculation on my part and time will tell.
 

Started at 53

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Overpopulation is not fun! You're not the only new guy moving into town :beercheer: Welcome, but I couldn't help smiling at the irony of the new guy just moving to town complaining about overexpansion. Worse yet than what is happening in Utah, think 7 billion people on the planet and growing exponentially. Enjoy it while you can!

@Wasatchman

My wife often chides me for my EXTREMELY straight faced sarcastic delivery, most who don’t know me VERY well take it the wrong way.... Which does not bother me at all, but it DOES bother her. Luckily I am comfortable offending people :roflmao:

Ok, so maybe I was only 1/2 being sarcastic in the quote above.

Sarcasm mode off, I do totally get that there seems to be a huge influx of us FNG’s arriving into your once low populace paradise. I remember the days in the early 90’s when it was rare to see another “flats boat” in the back country of the Florida Keys. Now it is a Sh!t show back there. And a big reason for us choosing Heber City is that DV will be our home mountain, hopefully they will keep the limited daily numbers and NO snowboard policies.

OK... Back to full on sarcasm mode... Way too much honesty when into that paragraph :doh:

BTW, thanks for the welcome :beercheer:
 
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JPM

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Even more Socratic Questions.

Does Stitching Mayflower still own any land around Mayflower?
Extell owns how much land around Mayflower? Think (Alta).
Did Royal Street offer a transfer of ownership of a 240 acre parcel in Big Cottonwood Canyon. To whom and and for what?
Does United Park Mines partner with many?
Why Solitude?

Thanks for your input.
 

Snowflake2420

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How does this make much of an impact on the Front Range?
It kills the RMSP+ , doesn’t it?
How is that good?
Does Powdr put Copper and Eldora into a cooperative agreement with the rest of the orphans, like Created Butte, Monarch, Powderhorn, etc?
That would be cool.

I tried to bring this up earlier, but no one bit :)

It's interesting watching the thread evolve as the point has been made Alterra (most likely) wants to compete on a premium pass, not a cheap, high volume one like Epic Local. Perhaps RMSP will live on, but with minimal benefits at the crown jewel Alterra resorts. For that they want you to buy the high price pass, which they still might get me as Epic Local is wearing me thin. My dream is someday A Basin will no longer be Epic, I know this is just a dream sadly.

According to someone high up I know at Alterra, while Vail is the primary competitor, he appreciates Vail's success as it bolsters valuations in the industry and makes a lucrative liquidity event more possible down the road for this partnership. Now that event is probably 5-7 years from now? So a lot can change, but if the economy and Vail keep doing well, it will be good for Alterra as well.
 
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Wasatchman

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@Wasatchman

My wife often chides me for my EXTREMELY straight faced sarcastic delivery, most who don’t know me VERY well take it the wrong way.... Which does not bother me at all, but it DOES bother her. Luckily I am comfortable offending people :roflmao:

Ok, so maybe I was only 1/2 being sarcastic in the quote above.

Sarcasm mode off, I do totally get that there seems to be a huge influx of us FNG’s arriving into your once low populace paradise. I remember the days in the early 90’s when it was rare to see another “flats boat” in the back country of the Florida Keys. Now it is a Sh!t show back there. And a big reason for us choosing Heber City is that DV will be our home mountain, hopefully they will keep the limited daily numbers and NO snowboard policies.

OK... Back to full on sarcasm mode... Way too much honesty when into that paragraph :doh:

BTW, thanks for the welcome :beercheer:
No offense taken :) Grew up in Utah, and moved back to Utah a couple of years ago from New York. Shocked and disappointed to see how much Utah has grown. I complain about it as well, but then here I am moving back to Utah and adding to the problem!! Unfortunately, Utah is no longer a secret, and I expect population explosion to continue. You used the word low populace paradise. Anytime a location is consistently described a paradise by humans, that usually means paradise will soon be over :)

Ah, I am getting way too negative with my recent posts. Geeez, the lack of snow this year must really be getting to me :)

Welcome to Heber!! Population explosion and all, I think you're going to like it.
 

Wasatchman

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I am more optimistic based on the fact that part of Alterra ownership are the owners of Aspen.and Aspen gets it. Aspen is very well run and has well paid (for the ski industry) generally happy employees. Not being a public company means they can take the time to do things right, may charge customers a premium but deliver high value (read modern infrastructure, uncrowded slopes, superior customer service, attention to details)....all just speculation on my part and time will tell.


I hope you are right. And interesting to read the views that Alterra will be focused on the high end as I had assumed they were simply going to try and replicate Vail given how successful Vail has become. So good to hear and know they will likely have a little bit different strategy. I'm sure Alterra know what they're doing, but will this ultimately be good for skiers remains a big question. At the end of the day, Alterra's #1 goal is still likely to be maximizing profits for their investors, and more often than not consolidation does not end up being good for consumers. But hopefully I am wrong and I guess it will probably be at least a few years yet before we really know.

I can definitely see the appeal of an all in one pass for high end resorts - though I still hope hope Alta/Snowbird/Jackson Hole remain independent.
 

tball

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Wonder if any non-Alterra resorts, ex. Copper, Eldora, would partner here ala RMSP? Otherwise it may be hard to pry away lots of Front Range Epic Locals.

I would be interested in seeing a Copper/Eldora/Loveland or Copper/Eldora/Loveland/Abasin pass if Copper/Eldora are shut out from the RMSP+ replacement. A girl can dream.

How does this make much of an impact on the Front Range?
It kills the RMSP+ , doesn’t it?
How is that good?
Does Powdr put Copper and Eldora into a cooperative agreement with the rest of the orphans, like Created Butte, Monarch, Powderhorn, etc?
That would be cool.

Perhaps RMSP will live on, but with minimal benefits at the crown jewel Alterra resorts. For that they want you to buy the high price pass, which they still might get me as Epic Local is wearing me thin. My dream is someday A Basin will no longer be Epic, I know this is just a dream sadly.

Note the comments from Powdr execs about pass discussions and their hyper local strategy in this Denver Post article:
http://theknow.denverpost.com/2017/11/24/eldora-new-improved-lift-base-experience/167784/

It’s Eldora’s local/beginner/backyard/craft appeal, along with its connection to its sister Copper Mountain, that makes its part of the popular Rocky Mountain Super Pass Plus, which corrals Steamboat, Crested Butte and Winter Park into a five-hill pass.

The value it brings to that pass is enabling discussions with the Aspen/KSL partnership, which now owns Winter Park and Steamboat ski areas and sometime this winter will unveil a game-changing ski pass that will rival the Epic Pass offered by Vail Resorts.

The smaller resort operators have to work with the giants in a pass game they maybe initially resisted. Now those pass partnerships provide opportunities for independent resorts to reach more customers. And their craft-design should appeal to the big companies vying to build the most attractive pass.

“We think they’d be crazy not to join Copper and Eldora,” said Tregaskis, noting his team is in discussion with Aspen/KSL on inclusion in the new pass for 2018-19. “We have added so much value to that pass product.”


Both Boyne and Powdr have a luxury in their private ownership. While the Aspen/KSL venture is privately owned, it appears poised for a public offering in the coming years as it collects top resorts including Mammoth, Steamboat, Squaw Alpine and Deer Valley at high-dollar prices. Boyne and Powdr are more generational companies, with owners looking to establish sustainability that stretches for decades, not fiscal quarters, Martin said.

Martin said Cumming, a lifelong climber who co-founded the Mountain Hardwear company, typically uses climbing analogies like “one step at a time” when outlining Powdr’s business strategy.

“We are taking those steps but we are thinking of it through the lens of John’s children’s children, who are not born yet,” Martin said. “We are working on how to protect and curate these amazing local gems for multi-generations. If we stay focused on what is the best version of this resort, the rest takes care of itself.”
Powdr's $10M in upgrades to little old Eldora highlights the capital required to play this game. The $6M 6-pack lift was much needed.

Hopefully, the RMSP will survive or get better. Winter Park going it alone makes no sense for Altera.

A few years ago I heard A-basin's agreement with VR ended this year. I'd love to see Alterra make a run at A-basin or divest of Winter Park to Powdr.
 
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fatbob

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My speculation. Aspen will keep the MCP alive - it's their baby and the skier's ski pass. As they are doing that they may as well give away 3 days with the AllAlterra Pass - capture those WP dirtbags for their treat weekend and give Squawites or DeerVallistas a reason to step away from their comfort zone.

AlAllterra will be competitive with Epic but maybe at the top end and with kickers e.g. if you want unlimited at DV. Day pass rates continue upward trajectory.
 

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