Lindsey Vonn trying again for Men's DH

[Started at 53]

I’m not the least bit hostile!

I am giving examples of mainstream physical sports.

You go for water skiing!

But good luck in your beliefs

 

[scott43]

That's a pretty good example of prejudice.
Eric

I'm not sure it's prejudice..but maybe selective fact usage. For certain things it's fairly certain I'd say that women are inferior to men. Power lifting for instance. There is a physiological barrier there. However, there are certainly other "sports" that women can compete in, and maybe even excel.

 

[Jack skis]

LV racing the men in the World Cup makes no sense to me. But thinking women can't compete against men in sports is contradicted by such examples as Susan Butcher and her record 4 wins (I think in a 5 year period) in the Iditarod Sled Dog Races. There was a woman who could compete on a level with male athletes. I don't know if her dogs were male, female, or whatever. In Masters Ski Racing in the Northern Division, and at Nationals in the 1990's Nancy Auseklis routinely not only finished first in her women's age group, but often had faster times than man in younger age groups. Since they were on the same courses, they were real wins in the men vs women category.. I raced in some of the same events and had no chance of beating her (I wasn't much a racer anyway), but she was something to watch. Doubt any of who us who were slower than she was were put off by her victories.

Scots skier might know if there are any current women Masters racers capable of turning in faster times than their male counterparts.

 

[Frankly]

The only fair solution is to erase gender divisions and develop a handicap system to allow everybody to compete!

Just assign LV a two second advantage over Aksel and we're all good.

 

[Started at 53]

LV racing the men in the World Cup makes no sense to me. But thinking women can't compete against men in sports is contradicted by such examples as Susan Butcher and her record 4 wins (I think in a 5 year period) in the Iditarod Sled Dog Races. There was a woman who could compete on a level with male athletes. I don't know if her dogs were male, female, or whatever. In Masters Ski Racing in the Northern Division, and at Nationals in the 1990's Nancy Auseklis routinely not only finished first in her women's age group, but often had faster times than man in younger age groups. Since they were on the same courses, they were real wins in the men vs women category.. I raced in some of the same events and had no chance of beating her (I wasn't much a racer anyway), but she was something to watch. Doubt any of who us who were slower than she was were put off by her victories.

Scots skier might know if there are any current women Masters racers capable of turning in faster times than their male counterparts.

Dog sled racing? Water Skiing?

You guys are really searching!

Like a lower weight “jockey” would be at an advantage in that sport if in fact she was/is lighter

 

[Muleski]

Wow, we're all over the place on this.

I need to think about how to respond, as the parent of a pretty elite female skier, a former coach, the parent of two high level coaches.....and the dad of a family who has known the skier being discussed for over 25 years.

We know people who have coached her for over 20 years. Just to start with.

She's a complex person. Add to it that there is a lot of dissension and differing opinion about what role, if any the USST should play in this, and what problems it creates down the road for both USST and particularly for FIS. Who should pay for this?

Add to it that she is NOT the same dominant skier that she was. It will be very clear this season. She is struggling with that. The Stenmark win record would take more than a miracle to happen.

It gets very, very complicated. BTW, the entire staff at the USST might turn over after this season, so who will be at the FIS meetings in May? That's sort of an inside snicker-snicker joke when the May comment came out in the press.

I'll weigh in later. It will piss a lot of you off. I will not be anywhere near as factual and "harsh" as I could be.

@Started at 53 world in the sports media business. I bet he has seen a lot of situations where the person and persona portrayed in the media is not really what seems like the real thing to those who are a bit closer to them on a frequent basis. I have always cautioned people to think about this with LV, Julia Mancuso, and even MS. On the men's side, I think that LIgety is the best case of what you see is what you get. Very genuine. The real guy. I also think that MS in the last year or so is very much that way as well. Good person, growing up.

I'll hold off on the gender "prejudice". Let's stick to WC Alpine ski racing, not even word class water skiing, or the best of Masters racing. I can't even go there, and I'm not a neophyte at either.

This is a stunt, a PR grab, etc. Has zero to do with competing.

More later, maybe. This is devolving to Epic. Not good.

 

[Primoz]

@Eleeski one thing though. She had enough training runs with all sort of guys, so unless she got blind from her need for being on front page, she should be able to see very well she doesn't stand a single chance to be, well even competitive with middle field of WC startlist. Why hostile? I guess we are not really hostile, it's just that some of us, ok as I'm not gonna be talking for anyone else, I will say differently, because I'm sick of this constant seek for attention. And that "desire to race with men" has nothing to do with wish to ski with men and see where she stands, she knows that already very well from training runs, it's just publicity seeking stunt.

 

[scott43]

Dog sled racing? Water Skiing?

You guys are really searching!

Like a lower weight “jockey” would be at an advantage in that sport if in fact she was/is lighter

That's why I put "sport"..

 

[Muleski]

@Eleeski one thing though. She had enough training runs with all sort of guys, so unless she got blind from her need for being on front page, she should be able to see very well she doesn't stand a single chance to be, well even competitive with middle field of WC startlist. Why hostile? I guess we are not really hostile, it's just that some of us, ok as I'm not gonna be talking for anyone else, I will say differently, because I'm sick of this constant seek for attention. And that "desire to race with men" has nothing to do with wish to ski with men and see where she stands, she knows that already very well from training runs, it's just publicity seeking stunt.

Agree, 100%. I'm "some of us", for sure.

 

[Eleeski]

Dog sled racing? Water Skiing?

You guys are really searching!

Like a lower weight “jockey” would be at an advantage in that sport if in fact she was/is lighter

I personally am not searching. As the current over 35 National trick water ski champion, I know firsthand how good these girls are in my sport. And how they double my best scores. And how rigorous the sport is.

My sister in law swims Masters swimming and places above most of the men in her open water races. While I can outsprint her in a 50 (maybe) I can't stay close on any distance swim nor can my brother who is a reasonable Masters competitor. Firsthand knowledge of the athletic strength of women.

Someday a female skier will be able to challenge the men. I look forward to that. Hopefully the insiders won't prevent that.

Eric

 

[Started at 53]

Maybe someday, but it’s nowhere close to happening in any “major” sport

Masters? Is that age group/non-professional stuff?

I am only talking about top tier world class stuff

 

[Primoz]

Masters or any other non professional non top level category is useless to compare. At those level there are people who take sport for more or less fun. Some do it almost professionally others do it for fun with "trainings" several times a week or even month. So yeah, someone who takes it more seriously, even if that's women, can beat someone who goes there for fun and is pretending to train 3 times a month, even if that's men. But we are not talking about this. We are talking about best on the world (or one of best on the world) women trying to compete with best on the world men. Not with you or me, but with best of the best. And at that level, at least in any sport I know (I admit I have absolutely zero idea about water skiing), there's simply not chance women will beat men in near (or not so near) future.

 

[Muleski]

One thing to consider.

Some feel this is about LV wanting to compete with the men, to show that she can. When this whole balloon was first floated, she was by far and away the best female speed skier on the WC tour, by a very, very wide margin. Since then, she has been injured quite a bit, she is older, and the signs, to people "close to this", are that we probably should no longer expect dominance.

In another thread, I think I mentioned that three seasons ago she was the overwhelming favorite to WIN every SG and DH race. Being realistic she did NOT have any real consistent competition among the women.

Since then, her skiing is perhaps not close to what it was. And, at the same time the women's speed field has really gotten better. So in simple terms 'Vonn down, the field up." It's not reasonable for the sport to think this is about the current best female racing against the men.

She was and is the best woman to ever ski speed in the history of the sport. No question. Her legacy is secure. But is she what she once was? I have my opinion.

As @Primoz writes, there is PLENTY of history with timing, etc. and it does NOT show what has been in the press released by the USST. The USST PR staff has suggested that LV would often beat the men in training. On a true apples to apples basis, I'm told, by people who do the coaching and timing in many cases that it has never happened or been close. That was the way when this was first floated, again when she was the undisputed best, and coaches, techs, people who are VERY close to the sport just howled in laughter. I recall one WC coach telling me that his opinion was that in a men's classic race, she would be very likely to beat ANY of the guys, lucky to be in the back 5-10. Perhaps these folks were wrong. These are both men's and women's coaches BTW.

Among that crowd it sounds like "typical Lindsey". The drama, the need for constant attention, the demands for special treatment. It's really excessive. Pretty clear. So a lot of eyes get rolled on this. Nobody in the ski world thinks it has a single thing to do with competition at this point.

And that is why "some" who are very concerned about the state of the USSA/USST are not very pleased that this staking up an ounce of energy and air time.

That's all. Not bashing her. She was the best ever, now facing the twilight of hr career. Not easy. But a lot of effort is going into that "personal brand" and just possibly affecting the skiing and training. Her current program and MS's could not be more different. Seems like LV will take ANY PR, media, TV opportunity. Just saying.

I don't think it's about "I can ski with the men, and none of the women can ski with me." No longer, anyways.

 

[Started at 53]

One thing to consider.

Some feel this is about LV wanting to compete with the men, to show that she can. When this whole balloon was first floated, she was by far and away the best female speed skier on the WC tour, by a very, very wide margin. Since then, she has been injured quite a bit, she is older, and the signs, to people "close to this", are that we probably should no longer expect dominance.

In another thread, I think I mentioned that three seasons ago she was the overwhelming favorite to WIN every SG and DH race. Being realistic she did NOT have any real consistent competition among the women.

Since then, her skiing is perhaps not close to what it was. And, at the same time the women's speed field has really gotten better. So in simple terms 'Vonn down, the field up." It's not reasonable for the sport to think this is about the current best female racing against the men.

She was and is the best woman to ever ski speed in the history of the sport. No question. Her legacy is secure. But is she what she once was? I have my opinion.

As @Primoz writes, there is PLENTY of history with timing, etc. and it does NOT show what has been in the press released by the USST. The USST PR staff has suggested that LV would often beat the men in training. On a true apples to apples basis, I'm told, by people who do the coaching and timing in many cases that it has never happened or been close. That was the way when this was first floated, again when she was the undisputed best, and coaches, techs, people who are VERY close to the sport just howled in laughter. I recall one WC coach telling me that his opinion was that in a men's classic race, she would be very likely to beat ANY of the guys, lucky to be in the back 5-10. Perhaps these folks were wrong. These are both men's and women's coaches BTW.

Among that crowd it sounds like "typical Lindsey". The drama, the need for constant attention, the demands for special treatment. It's really excessive. Pretty clear. So a lot of eyes get rolled on this. Nobody in the ski world thinks it has a single thing to do with competition at this point.

And that is why "some" who are very concerned about the state of the USSA/USST are not very pleased that this staking up an ounce of energy and air time.

That's all. Not bashing her. She was the best ever, now facing the twilight of hr career. Not easy. But a lot of effort is going into that "personal brand" and just possibly affecting the skiing and training. Her current program and MS's could not be more different. Seems like LV will take ANY PR, media, TV opportunity. Just saying.

I don't think it's about "I can ski with the men, and none of the women can ski with me." No longer, anyways.

Let me Cliff note @Muleski ‘s post:

Narcissism

That is all

 

[K2 Rat]

You sure about that? I mean I have absolutely no idea how USST contracts are, but wouldn't that be sort of same even as it's for example that race in Pagannela, Alpine rockfest or whatever it is/was called, where Bode and Ted were regularly racing?
I'm not going to go into Vonn racing with men anymore. Once she will be able to at least slide down course prepared for men WC race (men ice is a bit different then women "ice"), then feel free to enter men race. Until then, I really just don't give a f** about her ego problems.

Along the same lines, Laura Gut last year was at the Hahnenhamm Kitzbuhel DH and slide down the course during inspection. She said it was scary and was the only time she has ever buckled her boots tight for a slide slip.

 

[David Chaus]

I sometimes think that if LV really wants publicity, well then more bikini and body paint photo shoots should do nicely.

That said, I imagine she's trying to maximize her relevance while she still can. Whether or not she has a fragile ego, she knows that her capacity to make money at the only occupation she's ever had is coming to an end, and she's doing what she can to make the most of it.

Sure it's annoying, sure I would rather see her channel her ability to focus and work hard on coaching others to greatness, or some advanced degree in biomechanics or performance psychology, or rocket science for that matter. But I do not begrudge her the effort to try to cash in when she can.

Now, the USST playing along with the fantasy, that's another matter, they are culpable for their own judgement, or lack thereof.

 

[Started at 53]

@David Chaus

I never begrudge anyone for making money!

 

[Eleeski]

How many men are at the back of the field, lucky to get to the middle and lacking a realistic chance of winning? Should they be excluded?

Lindsey has an ego and a following. It could have made a good show. I'm worried about her current skills and injuries preventing a good showing. Plus the distraction might interfere with her Olympic and record aspirations - which are more important to me.

I'm just objecting to the idea that no woman can compete with men. Lindsey might not be the one but eventually there will be one. Lindsey breaking the barrier, even if she doesn't do well, will advance that possibility. An added benefit to the sideshow.

Eric

 

[Started at 53]

How many men are at the back of the field, lucky to get to the middle and lacking a realistic chance of winning? Should they be excluded?

Lindsey has an ego and a following. It could have made a good show. I'm worried about her current skills and injuries preventing a good showing. Plus the distraction might interfere with her Olympic and record aspirations - which are more important to me.

I'm just objecting to the idea that no woman can compete with men. Lindsey might not be the one but eventually there will be one. Lindsey breaking the barrier, even if she doesn't do well, will advance that possibility. An added benefit to the sideshow.

Eric

Annika as I stated above dipped her toes in the deep end, at the time she was the best female golfer by far, she chose a venue suited to her game, she played well and still did not finish in the top 70 after two rounds required to make the cut and play the weekend.

My wife was a good college basketball player, scored 33 points in a game as a freshman, she agreed women can’t compete with men.

Anyone who thinks otherwise hasn’t spent much time around world class professional sports.

I think some opinions posted on this thread are right up there with the NASCAR fans that leave a race thinking they could drive like that.

Nearly everyone has no clue how good top tier professional sportsMEN are!

I have nothing against female athletes! I prefer to watch women’s tennis. Trust me, I have been around a lot of grand slam tennis too. I’m proud to say I have broadcast Wimbledon twice

I get that you guys like LV, I do to... but please don’t lose (not loose ) perspective

 

[Primoz]

Along the same lines, Laura Gut last year was at the Hahnenhamm Kitzbuhel DH and slide down the course during inspection. She said it was scary and was the only time she has ever buckled her boots tight for a slide slip.

That's probably a bit (well A LOT) of exaggeration, as I was there, and while it's steep and and it was icy on some places, I'm still pretty sure Lara Gut can easily slip down there without being scared. I was, in Dynafit TLT6 boots, which are soft like chewing gum (and with some 15kg of photo equipment in backpack and no poles of course) and made it down without problems... well if I forget about little miscalculation on "flat" part toward Alte Schneise, which made things a bit airy over Alte Schneise and Seidlarmsprung . But racing there is completely other thing, especially through Steilhang, and for everyone who know how "well" Vonn performs on ice, and I'm talking about women ice (completely different stuff then ice they have on men courses), knows how scary something like this would be for her. And I would say Gut was talking about being scary in that perspective... as slipping down imagining to race that thing. That I believe she was scared like hell.