Lindsey Vonn trying again for Men's DH

[Snowfan]

Louise, no problem. Men's Euro courses, not a chance. Beaver Creek, I don't think so. Whoop the ladies, get the record, retire, and race all the Masters events worldwide to inspire thousands to give it a try because it is so rewarding and so much fun. Racing the men will not work out well at all. Drop it. Sure, you will beat a few, then likely get hurt real bad trying to beat the best.

 

[oldschoolskier]

Hi @Primoz.

I'm NOT sure. I haven't seen a contract for a number of years, when an athlete asked me to help with it. LV's no doubt is probably the most complicated one in the US system, likely wth Ligety's and MS's. In the past they dealt with things like having to wear the uniform, being a good citizen, etc.
Now, with it such a big business, things get more complicated. The USST pours a small fortune into "support" in the form of LV's private team of coaches, and such. I do not know if all of her physio stuff is through the USST these days or RedBull. The tech is all through Head. But still, while not on the level of the insanity of Tina Maze's last few years, a lot goes to LV. And as a result, she has been able to "monetize" her skiing to a big number.
So the USST wants to be able to control in season, what goes on. If there are WC events on the schedule, be there, unless you are on the shelf. At least realize that you and the USST make the decisions. I assume that it even extends to the support expected in which training blocks, travel, who knows?
Then you get into the issues of who "owns" her marking rights, and to what degree? Presume she does for the most part.
But, I think in the "spirit" of things, the USST would not want some sideshow, RedBull carnival to come with any interference in the normal WC season.
My hunch is that if here are restrictions, the USST normally just says "sure....go for it."

Alpine Rockfest was a pretty cool event. Is no longer happening, is it? One of the guys who founded/ran it was Phil McNichol, former UUST HC. My impression is that Phil maintained great relationships with the USST, FIS and most of the big ski federations and their coaches ans many athletes. So when he put the thing together, it was at a time that did not interfere with the calendar. It was really FUN event/show. Rock music festival and ski racing. I think that each succeeding year more people wanted to race. And the price money was really good. Maybe 100,000 Euros to the winner? At any rate I think that everybody in the sport was all in......though I'm sure that FIS was never happy not to get their take!

I get the sense that at least in our federation, the awareness of the financial realities for most of our skiers is there. Sure LV is one of the best aid in the sport. At the other end of the spectrum are the people who in some cases not only do not earn much if anything, but are paying to race. The USST is working to close that "funding gap" so eventually nobody in a uniform will pay, but that has gone on for a long time. My sense is that anything that can increase awareness, and interest, and put some money in the hands of these kids is well received.

That seems very different that something that might be all about LV, with little residual plus for the USST. That's why I think the request to FIS is going to go nowhere. I doubt if the USST will push. Doubt if it would work if they did.

LV was the best speed skier in history. Is she still? We'll see as the season unfolds. As I have posted above, I have my doubts. Incredible career, ability to podium on every day, absolutely yes. But head and shoulders above the entire field? Seems perhaps not.

The forerunning thing would accomplish nothing, IMO. The course conditions can vary quite a bit. The track can be much slower.or in rare cases much faster. The guys {and ladies} did not get to where they are by forerunning. Forerunning is a fun experience, but it has nothing to do with future race starts. They got there by getting results all along the way, and working their way to the top of the World Cup Start List. Some of that happens in NorAm and EC races, by working down your points. Getting your points below 6, and the WR near the top only happens by WC results.

This battle of the sexes is all about LV. She has many fans, and a lot of people might like to see it. Maybe more casual fans....sort of like an Evil Knievel stunt back in the day driving interest.

I'm done discussing it. Personally I hope it never happens. I sure as h*** do not want the USST to waste time and resources on this.

Insightfully and politely posted.

Well done.

 

[SkiSpeed]

https://www.skiracing.com/stories/vonns-proposal-to-race-the-men-tabled-until-spring


Looks like they punted. Interesting.

 

[Blue Streak]

Believe what you want to read. They can consider it, and vote it down quickly. The USST is hardly well regarded by those casting the votes at FIS. Makes sense to me that they would agree to "consider it" just to stop the USST and LV from pushing for it. And, it's LV and her people pushing. All a PR and marketing grab. Its not the USST. The USST has so many other issues to wrestle with. If anybody is wasting time on this, they will be at the top of the list to be moved out this spring.

The BS in the article about being competitive with men is just that. I don't care if she has trained with men on the USST, or with the Norwegians. The type of training and the venues are not like racing and I'd be very interested to see the timing. The Norwegians aren't sharing anything. And if LV is going hammer down while others are standing up, or close, yeah, she times faster.

This gets very old. Maybe they should let her race, and embarrass herself. The only men's track where she might not be totally embarrassed, or worse, is Lake Louise. Put her on the classics in Europe, and it would be scary. Birds of Prey? No.

I am going to be very surprised if she is racing in 2018-2019. If she has, by chance, a number of wins this season, and can still challenge Stenmark's win mark, maybe.

it sounds like the expectation is that she will be fighting for the podium in speed events this season. Fighting to get on the podium is a lot different than two years ago, when the basic expectation was that she would win if she skied clean. The field has improved, and she has aged, been injured and it shows up on the clock. She also may be not quite as crazy competitive as she was, pretty much risking it all on every single run.

She's a competitor, and a marketing machine. If this ever made sense it was a couple of years ago, and it did not make sense to those holding the cards. They said NO, clearly.

How would this look if she had a career ending injury doing this? Venue would be critical.

I have no idea how many times guys like @Primoz, @ ScotsSkier and others have weighed in on this. Now we seem to have a lot more race fans, coaches and others who can jump in!

Now I do see how the "general" public might be intrigued. Maybe.

My prediction is that she will have a hard time, when she is out of the limelight.
I guess there's always Hollywood Squares...or is there?

 

[Muleski]

https://www.skiracing.com/stories/vonns-proposal-to-race-the-men-tabled-until-spring


Looks like they punted. Interesting.

Not surprising. Let the Americans jump through more hoops, or let her skiing decline, then turn it down in May.

"Create a showcase event....." Sounds like visions of a carnival.

 

[Muleski]

My prediction is that she will have a hard time, when she is out of the limelight.
I guess there's always Hollywood Squares...or is there?

No question, she loves to be in front of the camera. A large and perhaps somewhat fragile ego. My guess is that she, and her handlers/agents/advisors are working hard to keep her in the spotlight for a long time. I also feel that we may see all of it having some effect on her skiing.
Three years ago, I felt she was an absolute lock to blow past Stenmark's record, and perhaps to push on to 100 wins. Now, I question if Stenmark's record might ever fall.
It could be that if she does not win a number of events this season, we'll see her retire.
She has been at this a LONG time, has nothing to prove, and is apparently thinking a lot about the future.
As I always say, she is "complex."

 

[fatbob]

I think they should say come race the guys but we think only the premier event is good enough for you. Then put her on the Streif maybe with a bib draw that gives her a few ruts on the traverse to think about.

 

[slowrider]

Poor thing. Her egos bigger than her brain.

 

[Blue Streak]

Hey, I don't want to beat up on Lindsey. I'll root for her against the euros every time.
But her public persona is just not that likable.

 

[Sibhusky]

https://www.skiracing.com/stories/vonns-proposal-to-race-the-men-tabled-until-spring


Looks like they punted. Interesting.

Maybe they are hoping she has another big crash. Then it'll just go away.

 

[scott43]

Maybe they are hoping she has another big crash. Then it'll just go away.

That was kinda my thought..big crash..retire..don't have to "go there"..

 

[Muleski]

Let the Americans jump through more hoops, or let her skiing decline, then turn it down in May.

"Let her skiing decline" was a polite way of getting at what some of you are suggesting. She's not a kid, and has a lot of miles on her body. There is some school of thought that she simply is not a big and strong as she was {differing priorities, etc.} and that if she skis with the hell bent abandon that she used to, it might be a "problem." There is also talk that if she is healthy and ready to go, but is not producing the results that she has in the past, it could be "ugly." It's one thing to be off the podium when working back. When all healed, with plenty of training and conditioning, it might nor be an easy adjustment.

I doubt that she is the best DHer in the sport at this point. So the issue of "why LV?" is probably real. And not a single other woman is pushing for it.

She's complex. Always has been. As it has been described to me, a big and fragile ego. That's been my impression in a conversation or two. Her parents are both bright people, but nobody would bring Lindsey to a Mensa gathering. She is an INCREDIBLE student of her craft. Genius at that specific arena. No denying it. Always a hard, hard worker and easily coached. But an intellectual of ay sort? Nope.

Also shocking to many to realize that she is not a great natural athlete. Purpose built to be the best speed skier ever, Yes. Top tier athlete? No.

As far as public persona? Whatever. Mothers of teen ski racing daughters, who we know, and also who know LV don't really think she's an ideal role model. Again, being polite. Her recent "lost" cell phone sexting pics sure did not help. Today most moms much prefer MS. So do the kids. So LV is shifting gears, I bet, on who to appeal to. Her handlers/advisors/agents are not fools. She could have a big career when this ski stuff is over.

BTW, she was very, very appealing as a teen. Nice kid. A lot of pressure on her, but nice kid. The whole Thomas Vonn relationship was great for her skiing, and maybe tough in other ways.

 

[fatbob]

Has she ever been a great role model? I mean superficially sure - works super hard, gets awesome results.

But in terms of being a well rounded human being? Showing the sport can be fun? Respected by her peers?

I know I know ....top level success comes at a price but I find it hard to square top level athletes in any sport as being role models for anything other than success in that sport. Some break the mould like Bolt ( subject to his post retirement blood tests remaing clean)

 

[Muleski]

I think there are a number of really great people in this sport.

MS has been raised under the tight thumb of some high control parents, but she by all accounts and some personal insight is a pretty delightful person these days. Getting more so each month, each year. I think her new BF helps. She's growing up by the month. Still just 22. She's be a solid role model.

Ted Ligety is a just a really good person. In every sense. Smart, hard worker, fun, well respected. I think he's a good one.

When my son was about nine, he met Daron Rahlves on a chairlift ride, which led to them taking three or four runs together. Son idolized him, and was such a fan that they actually take about Kitz. He could rip, too, which DR and the other guys he was skiing with thought that was cool. Like a MiniMe. Kyle Rasmussen was one. I think Chad Fleischer was the third. Our son 22 years later, is now pretty friendly with DR. He's a good guy. Great guy. He met Tommy Moe at the same time. Not as nice then, much better now.

I won't go through the entire Euro list. Our daughter does some work with the Norwegians, and she actually knows them. She is SO impressed with them, as a group and a real team. Says that Svindal and Jansrud could not be nicer guys.....and are great with the kids that are part of her club. Even the U-10's.

A number of years ago I met Ivica Kostelic over dinner with a mutual friend. Never a friend of his father, I was prepared for him to be not so great. Wrong. Might be the nicest guy who I have ever met in the sport. BTW, spoke perfect English. Great sense of humor.

Then.....we have the others. Some are just miserable, spoiled, and rude.

LV is perfectly pleasant and very nice with kids, signs autographs, takes selfies, and all of that. I just think that some of her past and behavior is not close to what I would want in a role model for kids. And I have seen some kids exposed to the backstory via others in the sport, only to be pretty disappointed. I probably have posted this 500 times. She is "complex", and if you form an opinion based on what you see in the media, it might not be so accurate. She has great agents, PR, etc. It goes back a long way. How Thomas Vonn was made to be "the bad guy" when their marriage blew up is one example. I think that she is very much in control of her entire coaching, tech and physio teams. So less upheaval than there once was. Also incredibly well supported by Head. No drama there. Always has a plane chartered for her. Fly commercial? No. So less drama. High maintenance?
I would say, yes.

 

[oldschoolskier]

I think based on what is being reveled and discussed that this not only a LV thing but a high performance “whatever”. They are the trick pony ask to perform unfortunately they do but no one really takes the time and protects them from their handlers and themselves.

I suspect that this alone could be a completely new thread conversation.

 

[Frankly]

I wonder if she has any acting talent? Because once she is finally uncompetitive she's looking at a career as... a celebrity.

I don't get the impression she'll go back to school or get a straight job (coaching, director of skiing, free skiing guru). So other than doing a Kardashian style reality show what else do "celebrities" do? I can understand booking $50k appearances while in the post Olympic glow but a few years from now what is a Gold medal motivational speaker worth? $5k a couple times a month? Her lifestyle on $100k/year lol.

Will she get her relators license? That's been the other post skiing job for many. Doesn't seem likely.

Us peons think that accumulating a $10-20m nest egg means spending the rest of your life eating bon-bons and sitting by the pool but based on the people I've met that are in that situation either they fall into sloth and substance abuse or they're busy working harder than ever. I hope she stays busy but I have a hard time imagining what at....

If I had her abilities and situation I'd free ski and surf my tail off but....

 

[Primoz]

@Frankly I'm not really worried about her having problems surviving. So I don't really think she needs job to get lunch on table, but what I'm pretty sure, she needs something to keep her in spotlight, because without that, she will be really miserable. So yeah some Kardashian style reality show is probably only way to go once she quit racing.

 

[Eleeski]

You guys are being pretty harsh on Lindsey. Here's a top athlete seeking the highest level of competition. When coaching, that's exactly the attitude I'm hoping for. Ulterior motives, popularity seeking, money grubbing or whatever else concerns you might not be a factor - maybe she just wants to compete.

Don't bash her character for believing she has a legitimate chance.

In the USA, the Olympics count very heavily. The USST might want Lindsey to focus on that this year. So a postponement of her challenge makes sense from that perspective. OK.

Eric

 

[Started at 53]

I have yet to see a physical sport where women could compete on a level playing field with men.

Annika Sorenstam was head and shoulders the best woman golfer when she hand picked her PGA Tour venue to try playing against the men. The course was chosen perfectly, a short tight course that forced the men layup off the tee the vast majority of the time. Annika performed very well, but missed the cut.

By all of the experts chiming in here, LV is not the dominate female skier, so how can she think she can be competitive against the men? I see it as a publicity stunt.

Like him or not, John McEnroe is a fantastic tennis commentator and recently came out with a new book. On his book promotion tour he stated that Serena Williams (clearly the best woman tennis player) would likely be ranked about #700 in the men’s rankings.

Apples and Oranges.

I fear that as competitive as LV is she would know she had to ski faster and more over the edge than ever before to even be competitive much less a podium finish. This could very likely cause her to injure herself. Beyond publicity, I don’t see a single upside.

 

[Eleeski]

I have yet to see a physical sport where women could compete on a level playing field with men.

That's a pretty good example of prejudice.

The world is changing. As time passes, more women are growing up without being limited by such prejudice. Where will that lead to in terms of women's athletic performance?

I'm not sure there's a single boy under 18 that can keep up with the current under 18 crop of girl trick water skiers. Definitely a level playing field physical sport.

Sports are entertainment. Publicity entertains us.

Why so hostile regarding Lindsey's challenge?

Eric