Is Lindsey Vonn the Greatest Ski Racer of All Time??

[Primoz]

I believe Lindsey would beat Klammer if they raced today even if Klammer was at his peak age. Technology and training is far better today as are female opportunities to develop.

Honestly... I doubt Most of famous DH courses didn't change all that much through the years. Kitz is still basically the same. Sure jumps are reshaped, turns are a bit different, but in general it still pretty much the same course as it was 30 years ago. Then check Klammer's time in Kitz and best time ever set in Kitz, and you will see they are in some 10-15sec difference. And there's simply no chance Vonn would make it down with less then 15sec behind best ever time in Kitzbuehel (Strobl in 1997).

 

[Primoz]

Vonn is to controlled to risk it all

That's something what I don't agree. Vonn is everything but controlled. She goes all in and that's also reason for so many crashes and injuries. She basically goes 100% every single race, if it works great, if it doesn't she crashes (badly). One who never gave 100% in, and therefore almost never had DNF was Maze, but Vonn is not one of those skiers who would ski with handbreak on if conditions were 100% perfect.

 

[Frankly]

Now the real question is whether Caitlyn Jenner could have beaten Bruce?

 

[oldschoolskier]

That's something what I don't agree. Vonn is everything but controlled. She goes all in and that's also reason for so many crashes and injuries. She basically goes 100% every single race, if it works great, if it doesn't she crashes (badly). One who never gave 100% in, and therefore almost never had DNF was Maze, but Vonn is not one of those skiers who would ski with handbreak on if conditions were 100% perfect.

I was a lot younger back then, and my Dad always referred to Klammer as a "Rag Airplane" in Austrian of course. As I was growing up in Canada, some of these expressions didn't convey the meaning as my brain translated, not understood. I asked what it meant and was given the answer he is way beyond the limits of what should be done and it a miracle he survives. In watching Vonn, while she skis at the extreme end and definitely tests the limits I would never discribe her as a "Rag Airplane" in her skiing.

Hence the difference in description.

 

[Primoz]

English is not my native language so if I understood right, you mean Klammer was basically all over the course, while Vonn looks more controlled? If that's what you mean, then I guess that's true, but that has so much to do with equipment, that it's basically impossible to compare two styles head to head. Klammer actually did look like totally out of control. And so did everyone else at that time, at least compared to nowadays. I'm not old enough that I would really remember that, but when seeing nowadays videos of those races, I can't help it not to wonder how there was not (at least) 10 dead guys on each race. Now even if you ski on edge, or over the edge, you look smooth.
But comparing Vonn's skiing with previously mentioned Maze, Vonn was pretty much all the time at 100% or even over, while Maze was way more controlled, which on the end also meant some victories less. And that's what I meant. But just from visual point of view, I agree with you.

 

[Philpug]

The equipement argument should be taken out of this because in each era the competition was on similar gear, the same can be said for almost every sport. Now, what is different is the amount on competition and how much better all of the athletes are and now the best ones are making the others better. @Mendieta's win percentage is interesting, if Stenmark and other eras had the amount of competition there is now, I am pretty sure the percentages would be different. I am not taking anything away from any athletes from different eras but ther era's not near the commitment that there is today..and that is for almost every sport.

 

[Eleeski]

The GENDER argument should be taken out of this because in each era the competition was AGAINST similar GENDER, the same can be said for almost every sport. Now, what is different is the amount on competition and how much better all of the athletes are and now the best ones are making the others better. @Mendieta's win percentage is interesting, if Stenmark and other eras had the amount of competition there is now, I am pretty sure the percentages would be different. I am not taking anything away from any athletes from different eras but ther era's not near the commitment that there is today..and that is for almost every sport.

Fixed it for you.

A bit tongue in cheek, but not considering Lindsey just because she hasn't skied a certain course ignores her competitive situation.

Discounting her performance because she is on the best equipment ride is also questionable.

Her Outside magazine cover rocked and has to be factored in.

Eric

 

[Monique]

In my experience, it is true that when women compete against men, the women perform more impressively than they had against a female-only field. I could theorize as to why, but it makes it hard to know what a woman would "truly" be capable of if she regularly competed against men - or to put it differently, if she regularly competed against people who were way better than the field against which she usually competes.

I'm not making a claim that she would beat the men's field or even place in the competition, but I bet she would have better times than she does against women only.

 

[François Pugh]

I guess it all comes down to what you mean by greatest "ski racer". Clearly the best men racing were the better skiers, and would turn in the better times in any race between them and Lindsey. Does that make them better racers? Some would say yes. Lindsey's performance is great, for a woman (and mine is great for an old hack).

 

[SBrown]

I guess it all comes down to what you mean by greatest "ski racer". Clearly the best men racing were the better skiers, and would turn in the better times in any race between them and Lindsey. Does that make them better racers? Some would say yes. Lindsey's performance is great, for a woman (and mine is great for an old hack).

This is just what I was going to say ... it's the competitor portion of it, not necessarily the outright level of performance. Like saying Serena or Graf are the best tennis players of all time, which doesn't mean they could beat a Federer or Sampras.

(And yes, then there is the whole, well, maybe she racked up all those titles because she didn't have the same level of competition as the men, blah blah whatever. It's impossible to tell. I don't like the GOAT arguments because of this and other reasons. Best 100 hockey players in history. Blah blah whatever. It's hard enough to figure out who the best is between contemporaneous players. I don't really care who the best fill-in-the-blank is....)

 

[Tom K.]

This is just what I was going to say ... it's the competitor portion of it, not necessarily the outright level of performance. Like saying Serena or Graf are the best tennis players of all time, which doesn't mean they could beat a Federer or Sampras.

(And yes, then there is the whole, well, maybe she racked up all those titles because she didn't have the same level of competition as the men, blah blah whatever. It's impossible to tell. I don't like the GOAT arguments because of this and other reasons. Best 100 hockey players in history. Blah blah whatever. It's hard enough to figure out who the best is between contemporaneous players. I don't really care who the best fill-in-the-blank is....)

A very cogent argument, EXCEPT for the hockey part.

Wayne Gretzky. Discussion complete.

When he was "on", it often looked like something was wrong with the other players' skates.

 

[SBrown]

A very cogent argument, EXCEPT for the hockey part.

Wayne Gretzky. Discussion complete.

When he was "on", it often looked like something was wrong with the other players' skates.

That's funny, because I was going to mention him ... except there are a lot of people who argue that Lemieux was/would have been better were it not for this that and the other. Which proves my point, I guess.

 

[Tom K.]

That's funny, because I was going to mention him ... except there are a lot of people who argue that Lemieux was/would have been better were it not for this that and the other. Which proves my point, I guess.

Lemieux: Inarguably third best of all time.

Second best of all time was Bobby Orr. As a former defenseman, even I have to admit that Gretzky could have skated right around Orr on a good day. But only a good one.

Sorry, back to Lindsey (though as a Minnesota girl, she wouldn't mind the digression into hockey one bit).

 

[oldschoolskier]

Sorry Borgia Salming best and longest playing defenseman of all time. Play almost every minute of every game until near the end.

Lived near the bottom of Royal York Rd almost on Lake Ontario in Toronto, while he played for the Leafs (15years) and the last with the Red Wings.

From what I remember one of the most "gentlemen" like and humble athletes ever.

 

[Monique]

I do believe the point has been proven.

 

[Started at 53]

Gordie Howe has to be in the top 3 all time best

 

[François Pugh]

Joseph Jean Arthur Béliveau. Gretsky was a wimp.

 

[PisteOff]

Joseph Jean Arthur Béliveau. Gretsky was a wimp.

As far as skaters go.....Gretzky, Lemieux, Federov, in that order imho.....

This threaded drifted off like a shot at Sawgrass 17.......

 

[Living Proof]

My .02 on this vital subject.

I've always been a critic of the number of Olympic Gold medals awarded to swimmers, my argument is that the shorter sprints are simply a duplication of skills. Judging ski racers on the basis of total wins changed when Super-G was added as a 4th competition. This change contributed greatly to the win totals of LV, and other downhill specialist skiers, I will argue that SuperG and DH are too similar in skills required, few GS skiers move up to medal in SuperG. And, props to those who do.

I think that skiing's greatest achievement is the Olympic Gold Medal, yeah, World Cup Championships stand side-bye-side maybe with less commercial impact.
I argue that Jean Claude Killey and Tony Seiler who both won all 3 Golds in their Olympics are the greatest skiers ever, while fully acknowledging that the days of so-called amateur skiing are far different from modern FIS skiing.

Total wins represent a great career, LV stands with best, but, it's not the sole component of greatness.

 

[SBrown]

My .02 on this vital subject.

I've always been a critic of the number of Olympic Gold medals awarded to swimmers, my argument is that the shorter sprints are simply a duplication of skills. Judging ski racers on the basis of total wins changed when Super-G was added as a 4th competition. This change contributed greatly to the win totals of LV, and other downhill specialist skiers, I will argue that SuperG and DH are too similar in skills required, few GS skiers move up to medal in SuperG. And, props to those who do.

I think that skiing's greatest achievement is the Olympic Gold Medal, yeah, World Cup Championships stand side-bye-side maybe with less commercial impact.
I argue that Jean Claude Killey and Tony Seiler who both won all 3 Golds in their Olympics are the greatest skiers ever, while fully acknowledging that the days of so-called amateur skiing are far different from modern FIS skiing.

Total wins represent a great career, LV stands with best, but, it's not the sole component of greatness.

The thing is, when it comes right down to it, ski racing is pretty simple. You are on your own, against the field, timed by a clock. Period. The entire objective is to go the fastest. Period. No excuses about teammates, referees, etc. If you win more than anyone else, against the highest competition available, then yeah, perhaps you are the best ski racer ever.