Indoor Skiing...viable...worthwhile?

[SSSdave]

• Are indoor ski resorts possibly viable?
• How much size, vertical drop, and slope pitch might a resort need to be minimally interesting enough to draw customers? And have some of them occasionally return?
• Do such resorts need to be near large urban areas in order to have a ready customer base?
• What about large urban areas in snowy winter regions that have ski resorts within say a couple hours drive? If so is this a better idea for warm region large urban areas?
• The energy needs to keep indoors cold enough must grow exponentially with indoor building sizes. How large can these things be before that is impossible in a warmer climate?

• What are people going to do that maybe had fun but then the nearest real outdoor ski resorts are a long air fare away?
• How about a large outdoor ski resort having an indoor temperature controlled ski run for night skiing or during poor early season conditions?

Indoor skiing has now been around for about 20 years. A few operations opened after expensive infrastructure was built but were not popular enough to sustain. I poked around on the web the other day after it being mentioned a few times in the current "what will grow skiing thread", and found the current state of those ideas hardly beyond what I read about several years ago. All but the most recent in China have short vertical drops and beginner to intermediate gradients.

The recently opened resort in China, Harbin Wanda Indoor Ski and Winter Sports Resort has a slope about 200 feet wide and 1650 feet long with a 18 degree pitch (36% grade). There is also a 130 foot wide 1250 foot long at 25 degrees (50% grade) with a 260 foot vertical and a 130 foot wide beginner slope.

http://www.fis-ski.com/news-multime...or-ski-and-winter-sports-resort-set-open.html

https://www.snowindustrynews.com/articles/china-s-harbin-wanda-indoor-ski-and-winter-sports-resort-set-to-open/

Skiing in video starts at 5:30
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2IIkaE15Goo

Part of the reason for that resort is an upcoming China hosted winter olympics. The location is in a northern China region with a cold snowy winter climate that has real ski resorts.

I think one place an indoor ski resort might work well is where real outdoor ski resorts are in the region yet a rather long drive. That gives urban people a reason to try out the sport much easier. If that large urban region has mountain topography within an urban area that would allow simpler construction on slopes without having to build a very expensive vertical building. Out here in the west that could be Los Angeles, Phoenix, or Las Vegas especially if it were built right in the city giving urban people easy access. Where else in the US might work?

 

[Jacob]

The successful indoor and artificial outdoor slopes around here are not near the mountains but have a customer base that can get cheap and easy flights to places like Geneva and Zurich.

They're destination skiers with no local hills with natural snow to ski on. So, they go to get a taste of skiing, take lessons, test gear, practice on terrain features, or just get some turns in during the off season. Then, they do their week-long ski trips in the Alps at the big resorts.

The best places in the US would probably be cities with airports with cheap and easy flights to Denver, SLC, etc. The two that spring to mind straight away are Dallas and Chicago, but I bet even places like OKC could be viable if the business plan is sensible.

 

[Mendieta]

The successful indoor and artificial outdoor slopes around here are not near the mountains but have a customer base that can get cheap and easy flights to places like Geneva and Zurich.

They're destination skiers with no local hills with natural snow to ski on. So, they go to get a taste of skiing, take lessons, test gear, practice on terrain features, or just get some turns in during the off season. Then, they do their week-long ski trips in the Alps at the big resorts.

The best places in the US would probably be cities with airports with cheap and easy flights to Denver, SLC, etc. The two that spring to mind straight away are Dallas and Chicago, but I bet even places like OKC could be viable if the business plan is sensible.

Or large cities with lots of skiers because they are close to the mountains: NY, LA, Denver, SF. Mostly for night skiing in week days, and summer. The thing is, the model woild need to either choose to be a training center, which i would prefer, but would aim at a smallr target, or an indoor resort, like Dubai's


I feel like the latter is the way to go. People can still practice, but it is probable more lucrative.

 

[Jacob]

I'm not sure setting up in a city close to the mountains will work. I just get the impression that people in those cities will ignore the indoor slope and choose to go to the mountains instead, at least in the winter.

If you have to go 2 or 3 hours to get to the nearest natural competition, then an indoor slope might work. But in a place like Denver or SLC, I think it would fail pretty fast. Who would choose to go to a tiny little slope and ski on man-made snow when you've got mountains with good, natural snow right there?

 

[Started at 53]

South Florida is a prime location. Huge numbers of skiers down here. Long before I got the bug, I knew that Miami had the largest ski club in the USA. The main ski shop is Ft. Lauderdale does a huge business with 4 other branch offices from West Palm Beach south to Miami.

The default indoor ski model would likely be the one in Dubai.

I will be skiing in Dubai in January as I will be in the UAE for 13 days and have 4 non-working days to ski. I am taking my boots and helmet. Gotta love my my boot/helmet backpack for carryon

 

[crgildart]

There is already a massive indoor ski facility 95% built at The Meadowlands, NJ. There have been at least three different owners promising to open this facility for the past 10 years. Every time the final stages of ramp up come crashing to a halt with little explanation as to why it failed to launch again..

I don't see myself as frequenting a place like that. I prefer ice skating and pick up hockey as my summer and fall cold sliding fix. It would be cool to go there for a couple hours to test your new off season purchases out though.


American Dream Meadowlands

 

[fatbob]

There is already a massive indoor ski facility 95% built at The Meadowlands, NJ. There have been at least three different owners promising to open this facility for the past 10 years. Every time the final stages of ramp up come crashing to a halt with little explanation as to why it failed to launch again..

It's the nature of the things - very good at generating buzz, getting lots of positive commentary from local government etc, angling for incentives/subsidies not so much at actually rasing the capital when push comes to shove and condos built on the same footprint can provide an immediate return. We have 6 indoor places across the UK with some gaping geographic gaps in catchments of a lot of skiers e.g. South of London but probably 10 or more other projects have variously been mooted at various times. For the US I'd go for Florida, Dallas, Houston, San Diego, St Louis, Atlanta, etc. The sort of places where people might be interested but realistically have to commit airfare or a long drive for a trip and don't really have a lot in the way of local options.

 

[Core2]

This forum crapped all over my idea of making a "good" indoor ski area with advanced/cool terrain.

 

[SSSdave]

Watched the above Ski Dubai video, thankyou.

Ski Dubai has 5 runs that vary in difficulty, height and gradient, the longest run being 400 meters with a fall of over 60 meters. 22,500 sq meters covered with real snow
and desert regions. Those desert places are very hot often over 100F while tropical places may be hot and humid. Would imagine some of locals will find going inside such chilly buildings nicely refreshing. One thing about some Middle East locations is they have low energy costs as oil and solar are cheaper. Thus can offset what must be considerable energy costs of keeping an indoor building at freezing temperatures. Another issue there is while the urban population is 2.5 million and there are many wealthy people both native and foreign visitors to pay for the entertainment.

They are building a second larger indoor ski resort in Dubai named Meydan One Ski part of a much largest tourist entertainment complex. It will be the world's largest with a 4000 foot long run and 600 feet of vertical.

https://www.skidubai.com/meydan-one.html

An even larger indoor ski resort is being built in Shanghai, China, Winterland Shanghai, to open in 2019. Note the Bejing hosts the 2022 Winter Olympics in Beijing so is part of that build up. I could not find any statistics that they are apparently keeping quiet about except to say it will qualify for some FIS events. Suspect the secrecy is because there seems to be some bragging rights targeted by yet to be build indoor resorts, so they don't want to show their hands.

 

[SSSdave]

Thanks Core2. Before starting the thread did not get a hit on that when searching with "indoor ski resort" since you termed it a ski area. Read through the whole thread. Some posts reflect on some of the questions I posed above. As to why some members crapped on the idea, it was summer haha when a lot of members are elsewhere.

https://forum.pugski.com/threads/why-do-all-indoor-ski-areas-suck.5175/

I had wondered about the possibility of building an indoor ski resort atop an urban mountain where the mountain would reduce building costs. A key physical constraint would always be refrigeration energy costs about which I have no understanding but would like to see some numbers. Obviously that must be a key constraint thus far that has kept any of the to this date resorts very small with little vertical.

If refrigeration costs are not an issue, one might imagine a larger indoor complex of buildings over ski runs on natural mountainous terrain where all skier levels of runs would be available for target populations. A whole lot of interesting things could be done at the advanced level that as Core2 noted could be very cool. Consider an artificial cornice and chutes and slopes with safe to run into blow up balloon green fake trees. Or safe to run into fake terrain obstacle "rocks" set up like slalom gates one would have fun maneuvering through without the usual danger? I doubt such could be economically built at flat urban regions due to huge building costs that become very expensive with greater heights due to material structural limitations.

In fact if such a resort were built at a winter snow region where there were periods of natural winter snows, they might be able to have a winter removable roof scheme to let falling snow in atop runs during storms and then close them up on days with above freezing temperatures and maybe mid days when sunlight would be shining onto those slopes. In other words refrigeration would just be used when needed and would also use refrigeration structures to also better insulate snow from temperature and sunlight effects.

 

[Bill Seddon]

http://www.igluski.com/news/tignes-plans-to-build-large-indoor-snow-dome_a19736462

 

[rcc55125]

There are indoor ski resorts and then there are indoor ski training facilities. Two indoor training facilities I know of in the US are both located in ski country, both in large cities.
One is in Denver. I train at another which is near Minneapolis, https://thealpinefactory.com.
An indoor resort in a place like Dubai kind of makes sense because travel is an issue and it certainly provides an alternative night out.
I think an indoor training facility near ski territory makes even more sense because it allows you to train in the "off season". A revolving infinite slope is a fantastic training tool for racers. I'm currently training for my PSIA Level 2 certification. At our ski area the formal certification training is 12 days per season, one day per week from December to March with time off for Christmas and New Years. Thats not really enough time to really learn the technique you need to pass a certification exam. Training all summer provides a tremendous opportunity to improve on technique. One neat thing about these indoor training facilities is you ski in front of a giant mirror. It's like having real time video analysis. Also, the instructor is right next to the slope and able to provide immediate feedback, turn to turn if needed. The mirror and coaching feedback are invaluable for the racer. Racers can even train gates on these slopes, they use small plastic cones that ride up the slope for the skier to turn around.
Lastly, it's a great workout. You can stay in ski condition all summer long.
I'm not sure about the indoor ski resort in our area but I'm sold on the indoor training facility.

 

[Chris Walker]

I've wanted to try the indoor training facility in Denver, but just never got around to it. It seems like a fun way to get a bit of the feeling in the summer time. I'll bet if there was a place like ski Dubai here I would try that in the summer.

 

[K2 Rat]

The proposed indoor ski hill at the Meadowlands, American Dream, is supposedly back under construction. We will see as we have heard that before for the past 10 years. Personally, I can't see how a slope of this size could draw enough business from the average skier as it would get old after a couple of runs. I think the key is to set up a decent terrain park because that does not need much vertical and kids ( i.e. parents !) will pay over and over again to hit the same rails. It could also draw some interest if there was a couple days/nights a week were they offered slalom training. And maybe a ski school to offer beginner lessons for those wanting to learn locally before going on a trip. But I have a hard time believing it is a good business venture. Hopefully, I am wrong.

 

[BlueSquare]

The only way I could envision a large indoor ski resort being viable/feasible in the U.S. would be if one of the large conglomerates, Vail Resorts or Aspen/KSL, entered the picture. Maybe partnering with an equipment group like Rossi, Lange, Dynastar or Jarden (Volkl, K2, Marker).

If they built one in a large metro area like Dallas, Houston, Atlanta or Orlando (central for most of Florida) with no feeder hills within a reasonable drive and used it as one of the "resorts" under their Epic Pass or Mountain Collective Pass, they'd then have a captive audience for their other resorts. Say I was an Austin or Miami resident that skied once or twice a year, and traveled to Dallas or Orlando a couple times a year anyways and decided to check out the new indoor ski facility. I could spend a $100 for a few hours of novel fun or $850 for a season pass at this facility that's also good at Vail, Park City or Whistler. Hhmmm...

"Well, we were thinking of trying out Steamboat this Christmas. Awww, screw it. We'll just go to Breck again since I've got our lift tickets covered and maybe check out Keystone this time. Anyways, this is a great spot to escape the damn heat so I could see myself back here enough over the summer to cover a large chunk of that season pass, and work on my turns so I can finally muster the courage to try Vail's back bowls. Gawd, I'm hungry now. Might as well spend $25 on those awful burgers, soggy fries and flat soda. Eh, why not?, I do the same at Disney World or on the mountain. Boy, I sure like these demo Lange RX 100 and Rossignol Experience 88. Should I buy these 2017 models now while they're on sale here instead of going through the trouble of renting gear all the time?!?! Decisions, decisions..."

 

[Goose]

I think indoor facility would make money. I think they can also be used for training and such. I would not go and as in the other thread you know my feelings about having one very near nyc. I think it would end up closed anyway. Just far too many morons would ruin an otherwise nice thing. Just the way it is around the big metropolis here. But I do think in the right places they would/could be nice things for people to do and would make money if done well enough to provide an affordable pleasant experience.

But can it be affordable and pleasant? I don't know. The cost to operate and make profit may require more patrons than what would otherwise create a safe and fun experience. Or make it more expensive. I just don't know.

 

[Core2]

But can it be affordable and pleasant? I don't know. The cost to operate and make profit may require more patrons than what would otherwise create a safe and fun experience. Or make it more expensive. I just don't know.

I'd pay good money to ski an indoor area that was like a real resort with cool terrain and lodges and daily powder. I envision a solar powered operation on a real mountain or hill within or near an urban area. I think it could be done but people like us on this forum are the minority of skiers out there. Most indoor places cater to the casuals and never evers which make up most of skiing's customer base and that makes sense from a profit standpoint.

 

[mdf]

I am under the impression that there are long-standing (and therefore at least marginally profitable) indoor ski areas in England and the Netherlands. I guess those are close enough to skiing to have a body of skiers to draw customers from, but not so close that people just go to the mountains.

 

[scott43]

Well I just found out there is an indoor ski instruction place across the road from my hockey rink. Going to check it out tonight.
http://alpineindoorski.com/
Thinking I'll put the runt in for a few "lessons" before we head to Denver in December.. I'll let ya know how that goes!

 

[soulskier]

Check out this indoor snow center in the Netherlands that is installing 10,000 solar panels on the roof

https://www.inthesnow.com/indoor-snow-centre-to-be-green-powered-solar-panels-roof/