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crgildart

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Is it the narrowness that makes this difficult? To me, it's the lack of traction and the way your lower leg is forced forward when you step down.

I think the limited width has a lot to do with some of the wobblyness and lack of traction. And why does it have to be rail/plank shaped since the ski under it is now so much wider?? An ergonomic foot shape like your shoes would be preferable for all intents and purposes and would no longer impair the ski contact underneath it.
 

cantunamunch

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FWIW, I definitely have experienced turn fatigue with heavy skis. It's not my only criterion, but I definitely consider it.

Sure, but that's taking a logical step too soon - we don't know what proportion of @Yo Momma 's 'turn weight' concept is due to ski weight proper, and which proportion is due to the sidecut and flex's response to his inputs. A light weight but stodgy-turning ski is not necessarily more fun, you know?

In herself's case I'm convinced that taper had more of a role than actual weight - she doesn't do well with extra wide tails that stay hooked up late into the turn.
 

Yo Momma

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Sure, but that's taking a logical step too soon - we don't know what proportion of @Yo Momma 's 'turn weight' concept is due to ski weight proper, and which proportion is due to the sidecut and flex's response to his inputs.
Interesting .......... I always thought that what you are accurately describing is always an unknown across any ski comparison......... thus giving the concept of "Swing Weight" inherent value when comparing skis. I'm confused now........... which is a relatively normal state of affairs! :):huh:
 

Doug Briggs

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AT boots approach the design you'd like incorporated into modern boot design. They are as wide as a regular boot, have soft grippy soles, walk mode and rocker to make walking easier. They are also lighter.

I still think that from a skiing performance POV, boots with 68 wide 'beam' soles work just fine in our current format bindings. I like easier walking and traction and that's why I'm getting Hawx Ultra XTD boots after using the Lange XT FreeTour last season. They have soft, rockered soles and walk mode. What I'm not willing to give up is on snow performance for walking performance. That's why until a couple years ago I toured in alpine race boots.

Wider soles and binding platforms might improve the responsiveness of skis over narrow sole and binding platforms, but by how much and at what cost?
 

Doug Briggs

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Swing weight can be important when you are turning your skis with rotary movements as you have to overcome more resistance to rotation. Swing weight is a lot less important when you are letting the shape of the ski (side cut and camber) turn the ski based on tipping and balance.

Overall weight is certainly a factor, but unless you are constantly getting air between your skis and the snow, it isn't a huge factor in the skiability of a ski. It is a big factor for touring and for riding the lift.
 

jmeb

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This is all wildly off topic ---

But at first thought I'd think that up sizing the binding platform would have a similar effect to widening skis -- more knee angle (i.e. torque) to create the same edge angle. The same thing that makes a 68mm wide boot a little bit "tippy" to walk on makes it easier to apply edge pressure.

Most importantly though, except out of boot traction, I've yet to hear any high performance skier who thinks the current boot sole is a limiter in their ability to pressure a ski well. The "play" designed into current bindings (between the sole and the AFD) would still need to exist on a wider binding -- unless we go to full mechanical AFDs.

Just not seeing the "upside" really -- especially when the shape of the boot last itself can be molded independent of the lug attached.
 

Doug Briggs

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W/O hijacking can you elaborate on why you switched from the Lange FT's to the Hawx... Thanks!

I liked the skiing performance of the Lange and they were lighter than my race boots, but in the end the fit was a challenge. I'm going with the Hawx because they are lighter, on par with (or better than) the Langes in skiing performance and they are 'memory fit' so I can mold the shell to my foot similar to how I can with my uber-comfortable Fischer RC4 Pro 130s.

To summarize, I'm mostly looking to get a better fit in a similar performing boot.

Nota bene: I work in a ski shop and get shop form so I can afford to change/try boots. If I didn't I'd probably stick with the Langes assuming I could have afforded them in the first place. ;-)
 

Yo Momma

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Swing weight can be important when you are turning your skis with rotary movements as you have to overcome more resistance to rotation. Swing weight is a lot less important when you are letting the shape of the ski (side cut and camber) turn the ski based on tipping and balance.

Overall weight is certainly a factor, but unless you are constantly getting air between your skis and the snow, it isn't a huge factor in the skiability of a ski. It is a big factor for touring and for riding the lift.

Exactly! That is why on groomers the Bones are less of an issue as far as fatigue, however deep 3D snow involves many more varied combinations of movements especially in chowder, chop, woods, thicket and highly varied terrain and snow types w/in the same run. Thus the heavier ski becomes more of a burden.......which is why I was guiding Paul towards a little bit of a lighter ski w/ one sheet of metal, rather than two... just gives more turn options for a longer period of time for those of us who are out of shape.... meaning me!!!:beercheer:
 

Yo Momma

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I liked the skiing performance of the Lange and they were lighter than my race boots, but in the end the fit was a challenge. I'm going with the Hawx because they are lighter, on par with (or better than) the Langes in skiing performance and they are 'memory fit' so I can mold the shell to my foot similar to how I can with my uber-comfortable Fischer RC4 Pro 130s.

To summarize, I'm mostly looking to get a better fit in a similar performing boot.

Nota bene: I work in a ski shop and get shop form so I can afford to change/try boots. If I didn't I'd probably stick with the Langes assuming I could have afforded them in the first place. ;-)
Don't wipe out or hit any sticks or tree roots in Lange FT's that light Grilamid shell takes a huge beating w/ gouges and grooves! :crash:
 

Doug Briggs

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This is all wildly off topic ---

But at first thought I'd think that up sizing the binding platform would have a similar effect to widening skis -- more knee angle (i.e. torque) to create the same edge angle. The same thing that makes a 68mm wide boot a little bit "tippy" to walk on makes it easier to apply edge pressure.
You don't have to apply more knee angle to get the same edge angle. You have to apply more lateral pressure to overcome the enhanced leverage the wider ski has over the skier to achieve the same knee angle. To illustrate: to get a 5* base angle to the snow, your leg has to be at 95* to the snow, assuming it is attached to the ski at a 90* angle. Your knee has to move a little further to achieve the 95* angle, but it only has to go to 95* (same knee angle) on a 65mm ski as on a 138mm ski.

Most importantly though, except out of boot traction, I've yet to hear any high performance skier who thinks the current boot sole is a limiter in their ability to pressure a ski well. The "play" designed into current bindings (between the sole and the AFD) would still need to exist on a wider binding -- unless we go to full mechanical AFDs.

Just not seeing the "upside" really -- especially when the shape of the boot last itself can be molded independent of the lug attached.
With this I completely agree.

Even the fully mechanical AFDs we have now (Tyrolia, Marker to name a couple) are intended to have a small amount of space between the AFD and boot. Tyrolia (a binding I mount quite regularly) has a card for testing the spacing and references it in their mounting guidelines.

I personally reduce that space for mechanical AFDs as I trust the AFD to function with pressure on it or without.
 

Doug Briggs

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Don't wipe out or hit any sticks or tree roots in Lange FT's that light Grilamid shell takes a huge beating w/ gouges and grooves! :crash:

The Langes aren't Grilamid. The Hawx XTD and new Fischer Rangers with tech fittings are. But I'll keep your warning in mind.
 

Yo Momma

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The Langes aren't Grilamid. The Hawx XTD and new Fischer Rangers with tech fittings are. But I'll keep your warning in mind.
Wait the Lange XT Freetour's???Hmmm......... @Philpug and I even talked about this in another thread. Are we mislead. Let me know! Thanks! This is right off the Lange website:
SHELL
GRILAMID® MONO-INJECTED SHELL
The GRILAMID® MONO (single) INJECTED SHELL is ultra-lightweight and boot-fitter friendly, allowing pin-pointed personalization while retaining high-performance rigidity for dynamic downhill performance.
 

Doug Briggs

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Wait the Lange XT Freetour's???Hmmm......... @Philpug and I even talked about this in another thread. Are we mislead. Let me know! Thanks! This is right off the Lange website:
SHELL
GRILAMID® MONO-INJECTED SHELL
The GRILAMID® MONO (single) INJECTED SHELL is ultra-lightweight and boot-fitter friendly, allowing pin-pointed personalization while retaining high-performance rigidity for dynamic downhill performance.

I could be mistaken; it isn't like it has never happened before. ;)

I’m talking about last year’s boot (2017), not the current model year (2018) if that should make a difference.

If the 2017 Lange is Grilamid (which I'm not denying), I didn't notice any increased susceptibility to scratches over my RC4s.
 

Wolfski

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'Turn weight' ?? Is this actual weight?
Didn't we used to use the term "Swing Weight" of a ski back in the day
I think this may have been what @Yo Momma was trying to state possibly

I prematurely posted this and kept reading...oops and in thinking a bit more (sorry) swing weight and the skis weight are completely different and it's possible to have a lighter pair of skis with a heavier swing weight.
 
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cantunamunch

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I prematurely posted this and kept reading...oops and in thinking a bit more (sorry) swing weight and the skis weight are completely different and it's possible to have a lighter pair of skis with a heavier swing weight.

Oh, absolutely - and it goes further than that. For example, deflection of the ski by external snow inputs (one of the things OP was complaining about) applies to light-weight skis just as much if not more than it does to heavy skis; controlling that is exhausting and I am not sure anyone's body can reliably sort the difference between that and actual active steering corrections. Especially in 3D snow.
 

Tim Flanagan

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Paul - good on you. If you look at the skiers who are technically proficient (PSIA D Team, former US Team Members, coaches, etc) no one is rocking anything over 100 underfoot in powder. That is unless they are receiving a sponsor check.

I don't know where you are in the spectrum but would advise that you take a few day clinic that will drill basics, then look at ski choices. Get wrapped up in efficient movement patters before you get wrapped up in equipment. I don't know if he is teaching, but look up John Egan. He may be able to recommend a path.

John Seifert at University of Montana has been studying the effect of wide skis for years. His findings are that anything over 80 and you start to torque the shit out of your knees. Based on my experience (and assuming that you have been on wide skis for a while) you probably have exceptional rotary movements, but edging and is pressure control needs to be developed. Once you develop those assets you will likely gravitate towards a narrower ski. Part of that will also likley be yoga - and increasing range of motion in your lower core.

BTW... I live out west. We used to live at / teach at Baker and now live in Durango, where I teach at Purgatory. My skis are 73, 78 ad 82 underfoot. 95 for touring and trips to Silverton.

Enjoy!

FAT skis kill my knees. They always have. Not so much in deep snow, but once I get on groomed runs or the firm, I'm crippled after four 3000' vert laps. Having a big quiver of skis to fall back on is great if you have the "means". However, in the modern world of resort skiing, getting back-up skis from the car to the slopeside rack is brutal. (Locking them up is always risky too. Will they still be there when you need to switch em out?)

The "one ski quiver" concept makes sense for the majority of the skiing public. Skis and binders are expensive and if you get that average of 5.2 days per season, then owning a full quiver is cost prohibitive. The Kastle MX 89 is one of my favorite, working well in all but chest deep conditions. And how ovten do we see snow that deep these days?

Back to my personal problems: Much of this knee pain is a result of my stance. I do my best to keep my feet apart, but to no avail. Many a full-rockered ski with camber under foot has helped alleviate the strain, I simply had to stop skiing them from tip-to-tail and get used to skiing the 140cm under foot with less focus on completing the turn and taking things down to a minimal turn shape. It also reduces the tip and tail "flutter" which drives me nutz!!!

There was a time, so long ago.... when a RS/GS ski was perfect for me when skiing powder. Thankfully, FAT skis came on the scene, along with other great inventions like the Internet, smart phones, flush toilets and cable TV. Nonetheless, I do often wonder if I could strap-on a skinny ski and make it work in snow over my boot tops as I once did?

 

Yo Momma

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Didn't we used to use the term "Swing Weight" of a ski back in the day
I think this may have been what @Yo Momma was trying to state possibly

I prematurely posted this and kept reading...oops and in thinking a bit more (sorry) swing weight and the skis weight are completely different and it's possible to have a lighter pair of skis with a heavier swing weight.
Oh, absolutely - and it goes further than that. For example, deflection of the ski by external snow inputs (one of the things OP was complaining about) applies to light-weight skis just as much if not more than it does to heavy skis; controlling that is exhausting and I am not sure anyone's body can reliably sort the difference between that and actual active steering corrections. Especially in 3D snow.

You make a really good point. Now I'm trying to figure out why heavier skis in 3D snow, like my Bones, and my old Cochise's seemed like so much work as compared to my Mantras and Sick Days which are both much lighter skis as compared to the previous. Thinking about it .......... I guess I've always preferred lighter skis when it gets deep. It seems like they were less work, easier on my joints and easier to release and pop into the air to correct my many many mistakes when I get off kilter........also in tight woods, the lighter skis just seem easier to handle. Thanks for the insight as I think I need some help figuring this out and explaining it properly.......... :huh:
 

Tom K.

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The " TWO ski quiver" concept makes sense for the majority of the skiing public.

Fixed that for you.

I've got many more than two in my quiver, and ski far more than the 5 days/season you mentioned, but I'd be lying if I didn't admit I could easily enjoy the rest of skiing eternity with a pair of 80-ish frontsidey skis and a pair of 100s.

Currently ably filled by Head Titans and Nordica Enforcer 100s.

And yes, "frontsidey" is now a new ski category. Watch for it in next year's (nearly worthless) buyer's guides!
 

Monique

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I would say ~100 and ~115.

But - it depends on the particular ski!
 
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