Featured I am done with super fats unless I am cat skiing.

Discussion in 'Hardgoods: Skis, Bindings, Poles, and More' started by Paul S., Nov 28, 2017.

  1. Paul S.

    Paul S. Keeping an old man young, one turn at a time. Skier

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    I am done with Super Fats unless I am cat skiing

    For several years I have skied on ultra wide skis in deep powder when out west. First the Volkl Shiro and then the Rossi Super 7. I have enjoyed both skis in deep powder, as one would expect ; both skis, at one time or another, were Ski magazine powder ski of the year. Here is my problem; I have not enjoyed skiing on either ski in the “chowder” that inevitably arrives at the end of an inbounds powder day.
    I do enjoy skiing in chowder and crud on my Brahmas and even on my Rallys. So, last year, on one occasion I used my Brahma’s in deep powder (13”-16”) and was surprised how well they performed in the pow, and of course they were great in the chop when the powder was gone.
    Ok, so here is the question;. I now want a little wider (around 100 mm) ski to replace the Brahamas for my western powder adventures. Something that will give me the same after powder performance as the Brahmas with a little more surface area for the powder, a ski that will not deflect like the super fats. I am thinking Bonafide, Rustler 10 or Enforcer 100. Any thoughts?
    Also, why do the reviews always rate big fats’ performance on the groomers and hard pack (where I don’t ski them) and not report their performance in chopped up snow? Should there be a deflection/chowder rating?
     
    Last edited: Nov 28, 2017
  2. Philpug

    Philpug The Ski'er Admin Pugski Ski Tester

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    Most of us are old enough to remember when 88mm (your Brahma) was a powder ski. The Bonafide will give you what you like about your Brahma but more width, the Rustler will give you more off piste performance, but not as good on the firmer. Here is my Cagematch between the two. If you note, NOT everyone rates fat skis performance on groomers..many do, we don't and it is something we find disconcerting.
     
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  3. martyg

    martyg Putting on skis Industry Insider

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    Paul - good on you. If you look at the skiers who are technically proficient (PSIA D Team, former US Team Members, coaches, etc) no one is rocking anything over 100 underfoot in powder. That is unless they are receiving a sponsor check.

    I don't know where you are in the spectrum but would advise that you take a few day clinic that will drill basics, then look at ski choices. Get wrapped up in efficient movement patters before you get wrapped up in equipment. I don't know if he is teaching, but look up John Egan. He may be able to recommend a path.

    John Seifert at University of Montana has been studying the effect of wide skis for years. His findings are that anything over 80 and you start to torque the shit out of your knees. Based on my experience (and assuming that you have been on wide skis for a while) you probably have exceptional rotary movements, but edging and is pressure control needs to be developed. Once you develop those assets you will likely gravitate towards a narrower ski. Part of that will also likley be yoga - and increasing range of motion in your lower core.

    BTW... I live out west. We used to live at / teach at Baker and now live in Durango, where I teach at Purgatory. My skis are 73, 78 ad 82 underfoot. 95 for touring and trips to Silverton.

    Enjoy!
     
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  4. Dwight

    Dwight Staring at grass Admin Moderator

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    I'l old enough that 65 was a powder ski. :)

    You are asking in the right forum. Ski magazine reviews have a lot to do with advertising dollars too.
     
  5. martyg

    martyg Putting on skis Industry Insider

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    You basically purchase your positive review with your ad dollars.
     
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  6. NESkiBum

    NESkiBum Booting up Skier

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    +1 for the Bonafide. I ski in the East and the Bones is my everyday ski and is great for chopped up New England "powder" days. I do find it a bit beefy skiing in the trees but for open terrain it's one of the best. The Bones is also a great ski for you to travel with out west.
     
  7. Tricia

    Tricia The Velvet Hammer Admin Pugski Ski Tester

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    I've been happiest on 100-102 under foot for powder.
    Lets face it, the powder generally disappears about 2 hrs into the day, unless you get a free refill day.
    However, I see some talented free ride skiers on wide skis, carving it up and I marvel at the skill it takes to do it.
     
  8. martyg

    martyg Putting on skis Industry Insider

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    Tricia - what you are probably seeing is them throwing their COM way over to the side to tip that ski instead of skiing from their feet. They will be the individuals who, in their late 50',s will say, "I used to ski but my knees won't take it anymore." It takes a great deal of athleticism to ski like that due to your body being in a unstable position at initiation. Like you, I give kudos to the athleticism, but fundamentally don't believe in "talent".
     
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  9. jmeb

    jmeb Stereotypical Front Range Weekend Warrior Skier

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    Being a great powder ski, and being a great crud / chowder ski is a balancing act.

    A softer ski feels better in powder. It allows the ski to naturally flex with the smooth snow, maintaining that special powder feel. Combine that with ample surface area and you have the best experience.

    But a stiffer, damper ski usually skis better in crud. It minimizes deflection, smooths out the ride.

    What works for individuals on here could vary drastically for you. Depends a lot on your weight, aggressiveness, terrain, and technical savy. Sure, you can ski a 90mm or less ski in crud and make it work. Many enjoy a 1-oh-something for the conditions you describe because it provides the right mix of maneuverability and a wider stable platform for dealing with the irregularities of the snow.

    As for the no-one with talent is skiing over 100+. I'm sorry. I just don't buy that. I see many people with exceptional ski technique skiing a wide variety of skis. Yes, if you're a PSIA-technique junkie, its one thing. But there are lots of former racers out there with solid fundamentals ripping around on 100+ skis because at the end of the day the find them more fun. And yeah, some of them are sponsored. But if you read into someone like Eric Hoji, it is obvious that he is skiing on a ski of his design that he believes is the best for conditions/style he wants to pursue. He's not in it for the paycheck.

    My personal belief is that there aren't skis that are "right". There are skis that enable you to ski more how you want to ski. If you want to slash it up like a former PSIA D-team member, than keep on your brahmas and work on your technique. If you just want to have fun and want something that provides a bit more stability -- upsize to a 100-110.

    Personally -- I love stiff, full-rocker skis in crud. I also think the RES tip/front of the ski of ON3Ps BillyGoat is something special in crud. But that is me. If I was one-off recommending a ski it might be the 4FRNT Devastator or Volkl 108. Bonus to the 4Frnt is that they're local and finding a demo should be relatively easy.

    EDIT: I remember running into a Lvl3 instructor I had taken lessons with multiple times (at Loveland) in Jackson Hole last year. I had only ever seen him on Nordica FireArrows. In Jackson, post-storm, he was Rossi Black Ops having a blast.
     
    Last edited: Nov 28, 2017
  10. Paul S.

    Paul S. Keeping an old man young, one turn at a time. Skier

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    Marty,

    Thanks for the reply. I completely understand - I have 20 years of teaching and two PSIA National Academies under my belt. I am no longer teaching, but I am still a PSIA member and do a least one clinic a year. My skies are 75 (Rally) , 80 (Titan) and 88 (Brahma) underfoot. One of the reasons I have been able to enjoy the Bramhas in deep snow is that I have dialed down the rotary movements in my powder skiing. We are on the same page!!
     
    Last edited: Nov 28, 2017
  11. Tom K.

    Tom K. HRPufnStf Skier

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    Agreed. I'm an unabashed inbounds, looking to make a bunch of runs and go home without hiking much, kind of skier.

    So these days, largely due to the "hour of powder" high speed lift phenomenon, I try to sus out which ski is best in crud and buy it.

    I do enjoy a wide ski at my home area, because it is generally not that steep, and it lets me make turns where a narrower ski would not, but usually 100 is enough unless it is crazy deep and/or heavy.

    Our early, decent season got rained out, so I'd kill to be having to make this type of decision SOON!
     
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  12. jmeb

    jmeb Stereotypical Front Range Weekend Warrior Skier

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    If you're looking for reviews of how skis perform in chop -- Blister typically focuses on this a good bit.

    I doubt you'll see many reviews about how 80-90mm skis perform in deep chop because the vast majority of skiers ("right" or "wrong") enjoy skiing something wider in deep chop.
     
  13. Eleeski

    Eleeski Out on the slopes Skier

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    Backcountry skis are designed for powder - that's why you are hiking, right? But you will find a variety of conditions out of bounds. So you will need a ski that handles a lot in the backcountry.

    My Praxis Backcountries are a fun all around choice for this lazy resort only skier. Sweet in powder, fun in crud, bump worthy and fun getting across the icy parts. Nice versatile skis for the softer Tahoe days. Not super fat.

    Eric
     
  14. Paul S.

    Paul S. Keeping an old man young, one turn at a time. Skier

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    Phil and Tricia

    I highly value your reviews, the content thereof and your overall approach to the whole process. In fact, I bought my Titans last year when I was thinking of upgrading to a newer pair of Rallys, but I read Phil's review and based on it bought the Titans without a demo. How is that for trust? BTW I love most skis I own, but after I skied on the Titans yesterday for the first time this season, I decided that they love me too!!

    Keep up the great work!!

    Phil, Do you think the Rustler will be too light (and maybe bouncy) for heavier crud? I really want that positive "drive" and slice I get with the Brahma. I think I am leaning toward the new Bonafide. I always felt the original Bonafide was too stiff for me, but the 2018 seems right up my alley.
     
    Last edited: Nov 28, 2017
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  15. Doug Briggs

    Doug Briggs Making fresh tracks Industry Insider

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    To each his own. *

    Mine:
    DPS Lotus 138
    Dynastar Cham 117
    Atomic Bent Chettler (123)
    Elan M1111 (121)

    The first three are in powder day rotation depending on backcountry vs resort. The Elans were fun while they lasted but they are delaminating now.

    My Ranger 98s have done very nicely in soft snow and handle chop just fine. I'll see how Pinacle 88s do in powder, too, maybe. The challenge of a (perhaps) 'too fat' ski in chop is just what it's all about. Every ski has compromises. When it is a powder day, I want maximum float for fun and to keep me off the harder stuff underneath.

    * No sponsor. I do coach, raced and still race a bit.
     
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  16. silverback

    silverback Booting up Skier

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    Paul, your profile has you at PM and the White Mountains. I ski PM a lot and to really take advantage of the low angle terrain, IMHO; you need the surface area to maintain sufficient speed.

    I've skied there on 105, 112, 120 & 138's and I prefer the 112's most days. Go any narrower, and I can get bogged down, and don't have the speed to turn very much. Bigger skis wear me (and my knees) out early. I rarely spend much time in the crud or on groomers there, mostly if I'm in it, I'm going from place to place on runs like Lakeview (between Paradise & HIdden Lake). Occasionally, if I end up by myself in the afternoon, I'll pull crud skis from the car and rip fast crud laps on Hidden Lake but it is the exception rather than the rule. I've never skied Billy Goats or Bibbys, but I'd like to give them a go for what you are looking for.

    For steeper, crowded resorts, I like a narrower, cambered ski for crud skiing. Crud is often mixed with some bumps underneath, and I like the pop a cambered ski has for porpoise turns, but that is just me.
     
  17. Rod9301

    Rod9301 Putting on skis Skier

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    Since the metal katana is no more, the blizzard Cochise will work well.

    Stiff, low tip profile.
     
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  18. Daves not here

    Daves not here AKA - Prophet98 Skier

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    I use my Patrons for cat skiing only - for the most part. They just don't handle the chop very well. Unless the snow is really heavy - I prefer my Bonafides for those days with lots of fresh that ultimately turns to chop. I am curious if there is a better middle ground and have been toying with the idea of a Dynastar Legend x106 that I demoed last season. Will try to demo some in that vain this year to see what I can find.
     
  19. silverback

    silverback Booting up Skier

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    I haven't skied the Katana, but the Cochise is too "glued to the snow" for my taste.
     
  20. Lorenzzo

    Lorenzzo Snow Skier Skier

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    If I could only ski on one ski it would definitely be narrow. But open that up to two or more and I'm going to explore the width spectrum. That doesn't mean there will be many days I'll be on something 90 or greater but in fresh snow it's nice to have a variety of tools depending upon the depth and nature of the fresh snow. Last season there were a half a dozen chest deep all day days here. I'm willing to invest in a couple of pair for those days even though they don't happen very often.

    Yeah, I learned to ski Sierra cement powder on rec. slalom skis. Could I still do that? Maybe. Would it be the most fun for me? No. I've had my share of recent powder days on WC GS skis during Masters training and it's fun and great for technique but not as much fun, in the real world, as something wider. I say that as someone who's typically on a Stockli AX until it gets deep.

    As far as whether non-sponsored, technically sound, ex- racer skiers here are on narrow in fresh...definitely not...completely disagree with that premise. Also, the Seifert study looked as solid surface effect, the physics are different for 3D.
     

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