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scott43

So much better than a pro
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I used to run Michelin Pilots on an old Chevy Wagon. I don't recall the size, but the it was not stock. It was wider than stock, and IIRC it also gave me a 2% speedometer error (said I was going 100 when I was going 102).

One day when I went to Costco to replace two tires, they wouldn't do it because the tire size wasn't listed in their book. They had no problem before they got trained to look things up in that book.

The tires worked fine (OK maybe a little too much sidewall wear, but that could have been my driving).

Just because it's not in their fitment guide, doesn't mean it won't be fine.
That was before people expected you to do the job three times and eat 4 used tires with no additional money changing hands!! :D I'd have no problem testing tire sizes for people if they bought all 8 tires and paid for 3 re and re's...
 

François Pugh

Skiing the powder
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Not sure I follow. I didn't need any testing done. I only asked them to put on the same size and make of tire they were taking off, the same tire they had put on 4 years prior. The same tire that I had tested for tens of thousands of miles. But no...; it wasn't listed in the book, so they were not allowed to put it on.
 

Plai

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@nay just want to say "Thanks". I put on Falken AT3W a couple of weeks ago. I can only atest to the dry road conditions so far, due to the dry CA winter so far. The highway road noise is different, but not that noticeable compared previous set of to the Bridgestone Dueler AT. Can say the drive feel is softer and more confident, so that's a plus.

Now just waiting for some "Hero Snow" for both the road and hill....

Should you ever come out N Lake Tahoe way, let me buy you one. :beercheer:
 
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jmeb

Enjoys skiing.
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@Plai -- as someone who took @nay 's advice on those, and has used them extensively in snow and ice. You won't regret it. They rule. My tread life is doing great despite year round use.
 
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nay

nay

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@Plai -- as someone who took @nay 's advice on those, and has used them extensively in snow and ice. You won't regret it. They rule. My tread life is doing great despite year round use.

I still have a ton of tread at 30K (15/32 or so) and no irregular wear.

Glad to hear good reports so far from others. They are out taking care of my wife in what are probably pretty bad conditions on I-25 right now.
 

princo

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Had a scare on the curve before the base of Mary Jane while stopping to park my 4Runner with Cooper AT3s, which came with it when I got it. Thread is 6-7/32nds. So checking my options. It seems like the Falken AT3W is becoming popular and hard to find? Called DiscountTire and said it would take 1.5-2 weeks to get them. Cannot find the Cooper ATWs either. Looking for sizes 265-275/70/17. Considering The Nokian Rotiiva AT Plus (made only LT rated) as is currently available in 275 for $170. Don't need an LT tire, but the Rotiiva (C load) at 43.9 lbs is even lighter than the the P-rated Falken AT3W (46.5 lbs). Any thoughts/experience on the Rotiiva AT Plus?
 
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nay

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The Nokian should be a good tire. Here’s no tax (unless you live in AZ IIRC) and free shipping on the Falken from Discount Tire Direct. Add $64 for mount and balance at the store.

AB53A95B-338E-48E3-85E1-A14C37D6CD31.png


No personal experience with the Nokian, but load range is a lot more important than the LT designation.

The BFG ko2 is also excellent, but generally spendier.
 

surfandski

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Wow, how time flies. We got home from our Colorado trip last night and surprisingly, our tires were a bigger issue on the way home than while in Colorado. After inquiring about tires pre-trip in November, I opted to not replace the stock tires on our Subaru Outback as they only had 15k on them and the season was not looking too stormy at the time. My thought was to wear these out thru the fall and then put new quality tires on before next year's trip. The poorly rated OEM tires did ok thru the trip and we had them rotated at 18,000 miles (rotated every 6,000) in Silverthorne at which time all 4 looked similar and the subi dealer told us they were a little beyond half life. We left Denver and by the time we got to KC the rear tires were in bad shape and then by the time we got to Atlanta I was nervous that they'd even make it home. The front tires were fine but the rears were completely bald on the outside and then severely worn on the rest of the tire. I took the car to the dealer today thinking something in the suspension was bad but they said everything was fine and the tires were barely out of alignment. the tires were also properly inflated.

Now obviously we were loaded up on our trip with 7 pairs of skis in the ski box and a ton of gear in the back so it appears the alignment changes drastically between empty and loaded but the strange thing is we did not buy a single thing in Colorado so the weight and loading on the trip back was the same as the trip there and we had no signs of abnormal wear on the way to Colorado. Could it be that the suspension components settled in to this now 9 month old vehicle to where being weighted down had more of an effect? Or could the rubber compound have changed after being in the cold environment for 2 months? I just can't wrap my head around how the tires wore well for 18,000 miles and then shredded in the last 3,000.

While at the dealer today I googled rear tire wear Subaru outback and found a ton of posts about people having the same problem with their rear tires wearing out really fast with the most wear on the outside just like mine. As if I didn't regret buying this Subaru already, I'm now going to have to deal with a car that eats tires every 1.5-2 years (assuming quality tires do better than the OEMs that we got 9 months out of).

So in addition to advice on tire performance, I'm now even more interested in advice in tire longevity and also which companies will most likely warranty the tires when they wear out at half of the 70,000 tread warranty (if we go with the Michelin Defender LTX). I spent a while on the phone with several companies including tire rack and they all said that the tire companies do everything they can to avoid honoring the warranties. They said that Michelin will only honor it if all 4 tires are worn equally and that each tire has even wear across the tread so I don't see how we'd ever have a warranty case with our Subaru. I so regret not going 4wd where I could just shut if off for the 10 months we are in Florida and NC and then engage it when necessary. Now, were we loaded down for the trip? Yes, but Subaru markets their cars where in every pic they are loaded up with toys to enjoy the outdoors so why would they design the suspension to be so fragile that using our Kuat bike rack with 4 full suspension bikes and a couple of kayaks on top would throw the alignment so far off that is shreds the tires? The amount of weight in the car with my wife, 9 and 13 y/o plus all the ski gear could not have been more than the Subaru ads where 4-5 grown men are out in the wilderness with all of their toys and gear.

So 2]we are leaning towards the Michelin Defenders but my concern is that buying them now, they will be well worn by the time we get to next ski season and our plan is to put a lot more miles on next year with the Ikon pass, road tripping from Colorado, Utah, Wy, Montana, and Cali. As much as I'd hate to lose a fortune on this car, I'm considering selling this POS and getting a real vehicle. Sorry for the rant but we already hated this car before we left Colorado and this tire issue just pushed us over the edge. The reason I'm so frustrated is I just got back from the dealer and had thought for sure they were going to find something wrong with the vehicle that could have been repaired but evidently, they just aren't designed for road trips (in spite of all of their marketing). End of rant........
 

pete

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@surfandski, could always get a second check on the rear set up in case dealership messed up. But yeah, doesn't sound too great if you found others with same issue.

Could be they're super sensitive to pressure changes, or maybe running rears on high end of pressure will help?
 

surfandski

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@surfandski, could always get a second check on the rear set up in case dealership messed up. But yeah, doesn't sound too great if you found others with same issue.

Could be they're super sensitive to pressure changes, or maybe running rears on high end of pressure will help?

Yes, it's a bummer. I rarely buy new cars unless it's something I plan to keep for a long time so that's the most frustrating part as we are 9 months into a car that we hate but that we planned to keep for a decade. They are trying to make cars so smart that drivers don't have to do their part but we are in trouble if this is any indication of what a self driving car will be like. Driving 40 mph and having the car slam on the brakes and scaring the crap out of you because it doesn't realize that the car with their blinker on (it can see the car but can't see the blinker and know it's turning) will have turned right well before you get to them, getting stuck in the Wolf Creek parking lot because there is 4" of wind buff snow and the car keeps killing your forward momentum by cutting the RPM's because it thinks you are running over a human instead of snow while it flashes "object danger", not being able to backup in a field or up a driveway because it thinks any blade of grass or incline is a brick wall so it slams on the brakes if you go more than 2mph in reverse (which makes it impossible to back up a snow covered driveway).....I could go on and on......

Anyway, if someone has a suggestion for a tire that can handle this design flaw and still do good in adequate in snow, I'd really appreciate it. I'm leaning towards the Michelin Defender LTX but would like to hear more about how durable these are given that according to the forums, Subarus eat tires about twice as fast as other vehicles.

We are also seriously considering cutting our losses and buying something else so we may just throw a cheap pair of new tires on it before we sell it.
 

PTskier

Been goin' downhill for years....
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Surf, there are active Subaru forums. Have you checked those for solutions to the rear tire wear? There must be a reason, and from that, a solution. There are also many Subaru tuning shop that offer chassis tuning. Perhaps those can offer chassis set up solutions that address this problem. Have you weighed your loaded car? Some shut-down highway truck scales keep the scales on, and anyone can drive through. Truck scales at feed stores, garden supply stores, garbage dumps also can give weights. If you overloaded the car, you need to reduce your load. The max weights are on the sticker on the car and in the owner’s manual.

You can buy a lot of tires for the money you lose with an early trade of a new car. Don’t spent more on changing cars than you’d spend on tires.

Michelin LTX are all truck tires, also sometimes used for heavy SUVs. Also, the defender line is the high mileage line, and the Premier is the high traction line. Buy whatever best meets your needs. All tires are a design compromise. Tread life vs. traction. Comfort & noise vs. tread life. Rolling resistance vs. comfort.

If the tire makers are picky about even wear among all 4, rotate more often. Buy from a retailer with many national locations...Costco comes to mind, and Walmart, and pick a retailer with free rotations. Tire wear is dependent on several factors. Weight, speed, road temperature, inflation pressure matched to the weight on the tires, driving style, even the abrasiveness of the aggregate used in the pavement.
 
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scott43

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A few things I've noticed personally...my Honda Civic ate rear tires in alarming fashion..design flaw, loaded driving produced poor wheel alignment causing abnormal wear. I have a 2013 Outback, done a bunch of road trips and haven't noticed any abnormal wear. As a matter of fact, the front and rears wear almost exactly evenly. Keep in mind the tire rotation schedule is important for Subarus, as is the recommended tire pressures. We're at 66k miles and we do use winter tires, and I'm just about to replace the original tires..so say, 30k miles? And even at that I could probably get another 5k out of them if I really wanted to, but they're getting old. Also keep in mind, tire wear is a trade-off with traction usually. So while I get people would like long wearing tires..they are also more likely to be hockey pucks. It's not fool proof, but if you look at the wear and traction ratings for a tire you can get an indicator of what the tire will behave like. It's a number like, "400 AA A" and corresponds to a relative treadwear number, dry traction and wet traction. 300-400 is a lower wear number, some are 700..few are 200. AA is good traction, B or C is poor. Most OEM tires are something like "600 A B".

Sorry, one other thing, I find the Outback to be undersprung and damped in the rear. I don't know if that's characteristic of the entire brand. But that would mean loaded driving will affect poorly behaving suspension more.
 

Doug Briggs

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My brother had a problem with his Honda and his tire dealer recommended some shims for the rear axle/wheels. Solved his problems with wear and shimmying down the highway especially on grooved pavement.
 

PTskier

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Doug makes an important point. While the rear toe-in may have some adjustment range, it might not be enough range. Rear camber can also be adjusted with aftermarket shims. It may be that the Outback can be aligned OK when empty, but with the suspension settled carrying a heavy load things change, and they may change to an out of spec condition, thus the unacceptable tire wear. Go to :40 seconds https://goo.gl/WDTPPM

I'm an engineer. It is my nature to need to know the "why," not just the "what." I'd start the research with a call to Subaru of America, 800-782-2783. Explain your problem and try to get connected to a technical person, not just the customer service agent. Be ready to explain that you've been to the dealership without good results--the local dealership is always their first answer.

I'd want to know the specifications for the car's front and rear alignment, toe-in, caster, and camber. Probably only toe-in is adjustable, but I want to know all the specs. Some part may be bent or incorrectly assembled. I want to know the specified weights inside the car when it is checked for alignment. I want to know the actual alignment readings, not just whether the car is "in spec." It can be at the extreme end of the in-spec range on one side, the opposite extreme in-spec on the other side, acceptable to the tech, and be aligned horribly. Unless I know differently, I want the settings at the middle of the spec, not just anywhere within the range. If I can talk to a tech person at headquarters, I want to know the expected readings when the car is fully laden at it's max allowable weight.

I'd try an independent alignment specialist. I'd get the car alignment measured with the car empty, then load it to it's rated max (according to the sticker on the car) with bags of sand or whatever you have. (The car's empty curb weight is available in the manual and on line. The Gross Vehicle Weight Rating GVWR is on the VIN sticker. Add enough weight to go from curb weight to GVWR.) Load it evenly including driver & passenger weight. I'd get the alignment measured when fully loaded. (Donate the sand to some playground sand box.) If the loaded alignment is way out of spec, you have something solid to talk to Subaru of America about. If the car can be aligned to spec both empty and fully laden, have it done. If not, Subaru has a big problem. If you've overloaded the car in excess of the max weights shown on the car's VIN sticker and the owner's manual, either the total car or the rear axle, that's on you.

Check your state's Lemon Law. If your car qualifies, file a Lemon Law complaint. That really gets the manufacturer's attention. That car is clearly unsafe the way it scrubs off tire tread. http://www.ncdoj.gov/Consumer/Automobiles/Lemon-Law.aspx
 

scott43

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Suspension design is a series of compromises...you have to give up something to gain somewhere else. It's possible they just chose to go with the 90% of people who commute to work with their SUV rather than the 10% or even 5% who actually use the vehicle to go places with junk in it. One of the problems it seems with the Outback is the desire to make it understeer at all times given its AWD system and weight distribution. I don't know if you'll get anywhere with people at Subaru..I find it unlikely they'll have much knowledge, or that they'd be willing to share any knowledge they may have.
 

jonc

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Yes, it's a bummer. I rarely buy new cars unless it's something I plan to keep for a long time so that's the most frustrating part as we are 9 months into a car that we hate but that we planned to keep for a decade. They are trying to make cars so smart that drivers don't have to do their part but we are in trouble if this is any indication of what a self driving car will be like. Driving 40 mph and having the car slam on the brakes and scaring the crap out of you because it doesn't realize that the car with their blinker on (it can see the car but can't see the blinker and know it's turning) will have turned right well before you get to them, getting stuck in the Wolf Creek parking lot because there is 4" of wind buff snow and the car keeps killing your forward momentum by cutting the RPM's because it thinks you are running over a human instead of snow while it flashes "object danger", not being able to backup in a field or up a driveway because it thinks any blade of grass or incline is a brick wall so it slams on the brakes if you go more than 2mph in reverse (which makes it impossible to back up a snow covered driveway).....I could go on and on......

Anyway, if someone has a suggestion for a tire that can handle this design flaw and still do good in adequate in snow, I'd really appreciate it. I'm leaning towards the Michelin Defender LTX but would like to hear more about how durable these are given that according to the forums, Subarus eat tires about twice as fast as other vehicles.

We are also seriously considering cutting our losses and buying something else so we may just throw a cheap pair of new tires on it before we sell it.

Drifting away from the tire issues a bit but I have the exact same complaints about the extra “smarts”. This car is such a nanny and overcompensates for drivers in some situations causing issues that are just plain dangerous (slamming on brakes at high speed). Have had ours about a year and will likely sell once we find a suitable replacement.
 

jonc

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Suspension design is a series of compromises...you have to give up something to gain somewhere else. It's possible they just chose to go with the 90% of people who commute to work with their SUV rather than the 10% or even 5% who actually use the vehicle to go places with junk in it. One of the problems it seems with the Outback is the desire to make it understeer at all times given its AWD system and weight distribution. I don't know if you'll get anywhere with people at Subaru..I find it unlikely they'll have much knowledge, or that they'd be willing to share any knowledge they may have.

The outback has well known understeer issues. Many owners upgrade the rear sway bar to a beefier model which helps to fix this. If you are handy it’s a fairly simple DIY. The trade off is it makes the suspension stiffer over bumps which you may not appreciate off the pavement.
 

surfandski

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Thanks for all your comments! We were not driving at all aggressively nor going above the 75 mph max speed limit on the highways and were only doing about 55mph on the one curvy mountainous section between Nashville and Atlanta due to our concerns about the tire wear. The only thing different between our trip there and trip back (other than 4,000 more miles on the tires) was that it rained most of the way back. I would have thought that would have reduced tire wear due to less friction but maybe it allowed the car to be constantly slipping in the rear.

From the posts I've read in the subaruoutback.org and other forums it does sound like this is a design flaw or as noted above, was designed to drive to the grocery store rather than the rugged (though we never take ours off road), loaded down road trips that Subaru markets it for. Almost everyone that complains about excessive tire wear talk about it happening on road trips. Yes, our Outback has very bad understeer but we don't drive aggressively so we just slow way down for turns. It is not a fun car to drive at all. I'm fairly mechanically inclined and am open to beefing up the suspension some except I don't want to be a guinea pig with new $800+ tires on it taking someone else's word that I'll get better tire wear on road trips. I'm also not thrilled with sinking money into a car that we hate and can't wait to sell when we won't get killed financially (though maybe we just need to get it over with and move one). We took the more frugal route going with the Outback in part because of the higher mpg than the other vehicles we considered but even that was a lie by Subaru as real customer mileage is a lot lower than Subaru states compared to the Acura MDX for instance that tends to out perform the stated mileage. Unfortunately we bought the marketing hype in a lot of areas and now feel stuck.

I could go thru the hassle of reloading all the ski gear and suit cases and paying to have the alignment checked both loaded and unloaded but if this car is that fragile that we can't use it on road trips then it's just not the car for us. One thing I thought of as an option for our one big 2 month ski trip each year would be to get a light weight trailer like they sell at Harbor Freight and put the couple hundred pounds of gear on that with it distributed properly so as not to add tongue weight and change the alignment. That sounds like a P.I.T.A but it would get the weight off of this flimsy car that was designed to be driven back and forth to the grocery store with 50 lbs of groceries. Right now the car is essentially a paper weight as we can't drive it until we put new tires on it and we don't want to do that until we figure out how to avoid the same fate. I'm considering looking for a cheap 3rd car that we can use to rack miles on to keep miles off this Subaru but it's a bummer to have to do that. One thing is for sure, we will never look at another Subaru again.
 

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