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martyg

martyg

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Talent...you're born with some, more for some of us, less for others.
Skill...talent plus training
Ability...talent plus training plus work
Winning...talent plus training plus work plus luck (you can't control the other guy's ability, only your own)

Want to bicker about the words I use?...OK...but the concept remains.

I would add mental focus beyond luck to winning. When you look at elite athletics there was a time when head coaches said, "Let's bring in a strength coach to make our athletes bigger and stronger". Then they started to experience injuries, and the cry was for physios. Then they figured out that with better nutrition and sleep athletes recovered better and could endure more frequent intense workouts so nutritionists and sleep monitoring was employed.

Now we are into the mind. On any give day each athlete in a elite competition has the same or very, very similar bandwidth. What they do mentally on and off of the playing field is the new frontier. For those of us not on the world stage the mind also plays a huge roll in our performance.
 

karlo

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250 days per year ? Since when There are only 8700 hours in a year. 24-7 as they say .....

my guess is closer to 365 than 250. I'll bet when she pedals a bike, or, just about anything, she is visualizing and feeling elements of skiing.
 

ADKmel

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I would add mental focus beyond luck to winning. When you look at elite athletics there was a time when head coaches said, "Let's bring in a strength coach to make our athletes bigger and stronger". Then they started to experience injuries, and the cry was for physios. Then they figured out that with better nutrition and sleep athletes recovered better and could endure more frequent intense workouts so nutritionists and sleep monitoring was employed.

Now we are into the mind. On any give day each athlete in a elite competition has the same or very, very similar bandwidth. What they do mentally on and off of the playing field is the new frontier. For those of us not on the world stage the mind also plays a huge roll in our performance.


Bill Koch XC US Olympian said about competing high end "It's 99% concentration, 1% Perspiration"
 

Rick Crispell

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My definition of "expert" - 50% skill, 40% confidence, and 10% luck. Some people are naturally inclined more than the average. But with work the average can go to a higher level. Also with work the inclined can go to a higher level. Time is part of the equation.
 

Muleski

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We know that Lyndsay Vonn was a mediocre racer, at best, in her early years.

I don't want to derail your discussion, but this statement stood out to me. BTW, Lindsey is the spelling.

Curious about how you draw that conclusion, what were "her early years", etc. What ages?

My recollection is different, and may well be wrong. Has she ever been a great athlete, though? IMO, no, not close. And I'm not alone in that respect. Far from it.

Mikaela's volume of hours on snow has been intense since she first was put on skis. If anybody cares to count. Not advocating anything, just throwing it out there. Most days in Vail as a toddler, most days in Lyme, NH. Pretty much every day in Burke, then almost year round {with big rest breaks; Kirk Dwyer is a huge periodization guy} at BMA. Full time on the USSA at 15. A lot of hours. Can't imagine any 22 year old with more.

Again, just an observation. Going back "a few" years in both cases.
 

mister moose

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There is one aspect of skiing that I find paramount to commanding technique in just about any condition and situation.
And that is , Stay light on your feet.

Yes, but I think lightness comes from muscle tone. Hopping and skipping comes from the strength to spring your weight up and land lightly.

I do know of a couple of people here in Jackson who I'm pretty sure have - or did - put in 10,000 hours (on our hill and others) and still couldn't ski their way out of a soggy Kleenex.

Natural athletic talent does remain a prerequisite to being one of the best, but focused long-term practice and coaching is what makes it happen.

This. One is repetition, the other is practice. Practice must have direction or it has no purpose. Practice with skilled coaching - now you have potential.

However you must have desire. Champions have it by the boxcar. If you do not desire to improve, if you don't work at it, want it, seek out advice, put in the time, then you will remain inside the Kleenex.
 

Goose

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My definition of "expert" - 50% skill, 40% confidence, and 10% luck. Some people are naturally inclined more than the average. But with work the average can go to a higher level. Also with work the inclined can go to a higher level. Time is part of the equation.
Skill is a breeder of confidence. I mean assuming we are talking avid skiers here and not newbies the general fear factor (within reason) would be out of the equation. So at least a respectable level of confidence would already exist. And the more skill one has the more confident they can be. That said, your right too because it is possible to have high skill and be held back via a lack of confidence in that skill. So I don't think there is any collective set percentages of anything per say where all of it equals to 100%. . Each factor (skill, confidence, luck) all live in their own right individually. One can be 100% confident in whatever amount of skill they have. They can also have a ton of skill but lack the confidence to use it. And everyone has different amounts of luck as for how much they can improve and how quickly. Some have a whole lot and given tasks come easier while others not so much. Imo all three things are very intertwined but not measured to equal a percentage of 100 together and are held in their own separate regard. Just my philosophy
 

CalG

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It is interesting how the thread turns to the elite skiers even when the topic is "efficient". There was a post that "efficient" was to be preferred over good.

Perhaps a reflection on "efficiency" is in order.
From my "tips from a professional" viewpoint, I try to embrace the "quiet upper body", and "quiet hands " suggestions.
Efficient skiing suggests economy of motion.
 

Crank

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I agree that efficient skier suggests economy of motion. It is good to be able to be one. It is not something you need to strive for at all times. All kinds of fun can be had whilst being inefficient.
 

Andy Mink

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I would add mental focus beyond luck to winning. When you look at elite athletics there was a time when head coaches said, "Let's bring in a strength coach to make our athletes bigger and stronger". Then they started to experience injuries, and the cry was for physios. Then they figured out that with better nutrition and sleep athletes recovered better and could endure more frequent intense workouts so nutritionists and sleep monitoring was employed.

Now we are into the mind. On any give day each athlete in a elite competition has the same or very, very similar bandwidth. What they do mentally on and off of the playing field is the new frontier. For those of us not on the world stage the mind also plays a huge roll in our performance.
My son competed at the national level in trampoline and tumbling. At that level the majority of the athletes had the physical skills to do the moves. To win it comes down to what's in your head.
 

Goose

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It is interesting how the thread turns to the elite skiers even when the topic is "efficient". There was a post that "efficient" was to be preferred over good.

Perhaps a reflection on "efficiency" is in order.
From my "tips from a professional" viewpoint, I try to embrace the "quiet upper body", and "quiet hands " suggestions.
Efficient skiing suggests economy of motion.
True , we are talking efficient and not necessarily elite. This seems to be about skiing as efficient as we can and I think that would apply to whatever ever level and ability we are.
Of course to be fair, it is sort of tied to an ultimate goal of being elite or at least is the path of progression towards it even if one never reaches that level. And is probably why the subject turns in that direction somewhat.
 

Chris Walker

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There are a lot of interesting discussions going on here. All I can say is I don’t know how anyone who works with young athletes can conclude that “talent” doesn’t exist. I’ve seen kids who weren’t the biggest or strongest be able to learn and excel at sports much quicker than their peers, given the same amount of opportunity for practice.
I’ve seen it in several different sports. I think a lot of it is mental— involving the ability to understand how to translate linguistic cues from a coach or parent into movements of his or her body, and to be able to repeat successful movements with consistency. I’ve seen kids who were new to a sport soak up coaching like a sponge and be far better than other kids who’ve been playing for years by the end of one season.
Yes, often these are the kids who just happen to grow earlier than their peers and are far bigger, faster, and stronger than anyone on the field, but not always. Sometimes there’s a kid who just “gets it.” I don’t know about you, but I call it talent.
Of course to reach the very highest levels one needs insane amounts of practice along with support, dedication, physiological advantage, and yes luck. But I believe talent is a thing. The only thing I’ve read disputing that is the book everyone here is referring to, which was written for general audiences, and I’m not aware that the scientific community is 100% in agreement with all of its conclusions. I’ll research it more though. Interesting topic.
 

Andy Mink

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There are a lot of interesting discussions going on here. All I can say is I don’t know how anyone who works with young athletes can conclude that “talent” doesn’t exist. I’ve seen kids who weren’t the biggest or strongest be able to learn and excel at sports much quicker than their peers, given the same amount of opportunity for practice.
I’ve seen it in several different sports. I think a lot of it is mental— involving the ability to understand how to translate linguistic cues from a coach or parent into movements of his or her body, and to be able to repeat successful movements with consistency. I’ve seen kids who were new to a sport soak up coaching like a sponge and be far better than other kids who’ve been playing for years by the end of one season.
Yes, often these are the kids who just happen to grow earlier than their peers and are far bigger, faster, and stronger than anyone on the field, but not always. Sometimes there’s a kid who just “gets it.” I don’t know about you, but I call it talent.
Of course to reach the very highest levels one needs insane amounts of practice along with support, dedication, physiological advantage, and yes luck. But I believe talent is a thing. The only thing I’ve read disputing that is the book everyone here is referring to, which was written for general audiences, and I’m not aware that the scientific community is 100% in agreement with all of its conclusions. I’ll research it more though. Interesting topic.
Don't forget that you also need the RIGHT coach/instructor. We all know that different people learn in different ways. A person with potential may not be able to live up to that potential if the student can't understand what the coach/instructor is saying. That doesn't mean the coach is necessarily bad, just that communication needs to happen on the right frequency.
 
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martyg

martyg

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There are a lot of interesting discussions going on here. All I can say is I don’t know how anyone who works with young athletes can conclude that “talent” doesn’t exist. I’ve seen kids who weren’t the biggest or strongest be able to learn and excel at sports much quicker than their peers, given the same amount of opportunity for practice.
I’ve seen it in several different sports. I think a lot of it is mental— involving the ability to understand how to translate linguistic cues from a coach or parent into movements of his or her body, and to be able to repeat successful movements with consistency. I’ve seen kids who were new to a sport soak up coaching like a sponge and be far better than other kids who’ve been playing for years by the end of one season.
Yes, often these are the kids who just happen to grow earlier than their peers and are far bigger, faster, and stronger than anyone on the field, but not always. Sometimes there’s a kid who just “gets it.” I don’t know about you, but I call it talent.
Of course to reach the very highest levels one needs insane amounts of practice along with support, dedication, physiological advantage, and yes luck. But I believe talent is a thing. The only thing I’ve read disputing that is the book everyone here is referring to, which was written for general audiences, and I’m not aware that the scientific community is 100% in agreement with all of its conclusions. I’ll research it more though. Interesting topic.

Chris - interesting point. Have you dug into the early development of any of those outstanding children?

When I work with outstanding young teens I find parents who instilled delayed gratification instead of instant rewards, established a work ethic at a young age, a lot of time playing outdoors, and children who were challenged in supportive environments.

It's extremely gratifying to get those young superstars and it is exceedingly rewarding to work with them. Once I develop a relationship with their parents I definitely see a pattern. Those lessons instilled in early years also serves them well in all areas of life - even if none of them ends up on the world stage.

Work ethic and the desire to be the best version of yourself seems to equal "talent" (a god given ability - not to be confused with someone who works hard at a given skill or a swimmer having a freakishly long torso and wingspan- that in my book is not "talent"), no matter if it was in SF pipeline, math, entrepreneurship, language skills or athletics.

Enjoy.
 

Tom Holtmann

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Much of what is being discussed here is based on the work of Anders Ericksson. Michael Gervais interviews him on his Mastery podcast that is cited on the first page of this article. It is very interesting and he discusses many of the points that are being questioned in this conversation (including the misinterpretation of his work by Gladwell). He also addresses how much talent has to do with mastery. He says much work has to be done and it is far from settled, however, he cites studies of musicians and they found that the best didn't show superior talent when they started. It is a fascinating interview and will clarify much of what is being discussed.
 
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Tom Holtmann

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I have to disagree with the opinion that MS isn't a great athlete. Of course she is a great athlete. She is by most accounts the best female skier in the world. Does that mean she is the fastest, strongest, jump the highest, best surfer, best mountain biker ect. ect. No. She is simply the best skier which is what she is judged on. I remember a race where she skied over a slalom gate where the gate landed right under her ski. She didn't miss a beat and won the race. There may not be another female skier in the world that could have done that. The announcers were in awe. To me, that is the definition of a great athlete not some other measures that have very little to do with being the best skier (obviously).
 

Rod9301

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The book you guys are referring to like it's the Bible is really pop pseudo science. It has a feel good, populist message so it's understandable that people like it.

But not much foundation in science.
 

Goose

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Chris - interesting point. Have you dug into the early development of any of those outstanding children?

When I work with outstanding young teens I find parents who instilled delayed gratification instead of instant rewards, established a work ethic at a young age, a lot of time playing outdoors, and children who were challenged in supportive environments.

It's extremely gratifying to get those young superstars and it is exceedingly rewarding to work with them. Once I develop a relationship with their parents I definitely see a pattern. Those lessons instilled in early years also serves them well in all areas of life - even if none of them ends up on the world stage.

Work ethic and the desire to be the best version of yourself seems to equal "talent" (a god given ability - not to be confused with someone who works hard at a given skill or a swimmer having a freakishly long torso and wingspan- that in my book is not "talent"), no matter if it was in SF pipeline, math, entrepreneurship, language skills or athletics.

Enjoy.
While there may be some correlation between some young athletes and the parent instilled mindsets of those athletes, I don't think that is written in stone nor is nearly always the case. There are gifted and even many professional athletes who came from the most misguided parents there can be. And then are also tons of kids/teens who parents instilled all the right things for the making of a good athlete and yet don't have much and athletic bone in their body. The only thing imo that would hold any water is that if a youth has the ability and then also was fortunate enough to have the parents instill the right guidance, then that youngster if interested in a given sport (or whatver) has a bit of an advantage vs his peers.

Somewhere in the world is the greatest skier, football player, hockey player, homerun hitter, etc.... who may right now be an accountant, a doctor, a sanitation worker, an auto mechanic, etc.. and yet they nor anyone else would ever know had their life simply lead a different path that they were the next hall of famer. Some people would just simply be or been great at a given task regardless of other circumstances. For whatever the reasons by nature some people have, or can acquire, and are just born with an ability to be really good at a given task/s whether they even now it or not or even ever did it. Its just there.
 
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