Edge and wax without base grind....Question

[Goose]

And so with not a lot of ski days on my (and my families) skis they have all been for a few edge&wax tunes and in fact are at the shop now. But no need for base grinds. Or at least not yet.

but it got me thinking. Every time you get the edges sharpened you take something off of them even if very minimal. But do that a number of times while only waxing but not grinding the base (because its in good shape and not in need of a grind).
And so being you are actually taking something off the steel edge without anything off the ski base doesn't that then make the edge no longer possible to grind to the desired degree you want?.

And so lets say Ive got 1 degree base edge tune. If one keeps doing that without then eventually also grinding the base you can no longer eventually tune to 1 degree anymore.

Don't know if Im explaining my thought to be easily understood or not.

Lets try another way.....
So the base edge of the steel (the inner portion of that edge) is meeting the base of the ski and then of course is grinded (or tuned) at a 1 degree angle upwards from that point as you get to the outer edge of that steel edge.

But as you do this a number of times yet without grinding the base it occurred to me that it would eventually no longer be possible to do. If the inner part of the steel edge is always even with the base of the ski and you keep taking a tiny slice off the steel without a slice off the ski base and therefore the desired 1degree from inner to outer edge of that steel would no longer be possible unless the ski base is also grinded and only then can you achieve the desired 1 degree.

In fact id speculate every single time you edge tuned without base grind you would technically be just that much further from the desired 1degree. It would (even though very minimal) always a tad higher and go higher with every edge tune (while only a base wax without base grind).

 

[Rod9301]

You are not supposed to touch the base angle, unless it's got burrs, and then only lightly with a diamond Stone.

Do only the side edges.

For the reason you stated.

 

[Goose]

You are not supposed to touch the base angle, unless it's got burrs, and then only lightly with a diamond Stone.

Do only the side edges.

For the reason you stated.

But don't you have to touch both sides of an edge in order to then sharpen that edge? Are you suggesting they are only grinding something off the side of that edge?

The bottom portion of the steel edge would also have a tad of rust and/or imperfections or whatever have you and in order to make a clean edge tune logic would say you need to hit both sides of it.

And without ever touching the bottom portion of the steel how can you ever know if its at 1degree. And don't different skis and different people for different reasons tune the bottom at degrees other than 1? I understand you can tune a side at the 2degrees (or 1 or 3) based off the given that the bottom is at 1 All you do is ad another degree to the side sharpening. But what if the base angle isn't at 1 and you want it to be yet is never touched. Not really making a lot of sense to me.

 

[Tricia]

It takes several tunes and a lot of skiing before the base bevel is affected much. Your tune shop can likely give you feedback on when a grind may be necessary.

 

[KingGrump]

Cross section pic of a ski showing base and side edge bevels.

Sharpening by side filing will reduce the width of the base edge but not change the base edge angle relative to the ptex base.

The base angle generally increases with each additional ski day due to wear.

 

[Goose]

Cross section pic of a ski showing base and side edge bevels.

View attachment 35144

Sharpening by side filing will reduce the width of the base edge but not change the base edge angle relative to the ptex base.

The base angle generally increases with each additional ski day due to wear.

sort of my point. It reduces with wear but would also of course wear with a filling of course.

But as I also mention doesn't that bottom (base side) of the steel edge also require a filing for a basic edge tune? that's not normally shaved with an edge tune? But only the outer side edge is touched?

 

[Goose]

It takes several tunes and a lot of skiing before the base bevel is affected much. Your tune shop can likely give you feedback on when a grind may be necessary.

So the only time the bottom portion of the steel edge is filed at all is when they do an entire ski base grind? otherwise they are only working with the side edge of the steel.

 

[Goose]

on another note I thought most skis come from the factory with a 1-degre base angle and was pretty standard. especially for east coast hard pack skiing.

 

[Wilhelmson]

Whatever microscopic burr you might get on the base edge after working on the side edge will be worn off after one or two runs anyways. The base edge angle won't change if the sides are done correctly.

 

[KingGrump]

sort of my point. It reduces with wear but would also of course wear with a filling of course.

But as I also mention doesn't that bottom (base side) of the steel edge also require a filing for a basic edge tune? that's not normally shaved with an edge tune? But only the outer side edge is touched?

Dulling of a ski edge is the rounding of the outer most point between the edge base and the edge side. For most of us that hand file our skis. we only side file the edge. The base edge is not touched at all. The idea is to produce a sharp point at the intersection again.

The increase in base edge angle for us are usually due to gradually wear produced by contact with ice and snow.

When you take a pair of skis into a shop for a basic tune. All bets are off in regards to what they actually do. Most often a "hand" tune is not part of the routine.
Most of it is machine work.

 

[KingGrump]

Whatever microscopic burr you might get on the base edge after working on the side edge will be worn off after one or two runs anyways.

@Atomicman to the white courtesy phone.

 

[focker]

I have another question sort of related to this topic. How many times can you base grind a ski before it's not really possible to any longer?

 

[Dwight]

Many skis come with a base 1 and edge 1. Some come 1/ 2 or 1/3. Nothing from a manufacturer is 100% dead on. That is why it is always a good idea to have the base and edge set on your new skis.

There are some documents on the web that state mfg base and edge settings. I can not vouch for the accuracy of them. Mfg Base and Edge angles

 

[jmeb]

I have another question sort of related to this topic. How many times can you base grind a ski before it's not really possible to any longer?

Depends on both the ski, and the quality/depth of grind. Sometimes you need a deep grind to level things out. Sometimes a shallow one will do. Some companies (like On3p) use 1.8mm thick base material, most use only 1.4mm.

In general, I would think 4 is about the median amount of grinds most get out of a ski.

 

[Sibhusky]

There's no fixed amount, because sometimes they are only adding structure, compared to trying to flatten a concave or convex base.

Personally, I'm doing my own structure refresh 2-3 tunes a season and not getting grinds. I haven't had a shop grind in maybe four years?

I have another question sort of related to this topic. How many times can you base grind a ski before it's not really possible to any longer?

 

[focker]

Ok good to know.

 

[Goose]

Many skis come with a base 1 and edge 1. Some come 1/ 2 or 1/3. Nothing from a manufacturer is 100% dead on. That is why it is always a good idea to have the base and edge set on your new skis.

There are some documents on the web that state mfg base and edge settings. I can not vouch for the accuracy of them. Mfg Base and Edge angles

The problem is when someone wants a .5 base angle but the ski has a 1. and that cant go down once done.

 

[Goose]

The problem is when someone wants a .5 base angle but the ski has a 1. and that cant go down once done.

Dulling of a ski edge is the rounding of the outer most point between the edge base and the edge side. For most of us that hand file our skis. we only side file the edge. The base edge is not touched at all. The idea is to produce a sharp point at the intersection again.

The increase in base edge angle for us are usually due to gradually wear produced by contact with ice and snow.

When you take a pair of skis into a shop for a basic tune. All bets are off in regards to what they actually do. Most often a "hand" tune is not part of the routine.
Most of it is machine work.

my shop (and Ive asked often) tells me they tune a 1-2* side as standard unless one wants less/more. Id assume they have a machine set up for this but did not ask. But honestly unless the person in charge really dos understand and care how can you really know what you get.

For a 1-2 edge angle you need a side at 3 from flat in order to compensate for the 1 degree base. How can I know if whatever they do is not overlooking that fact and what I end up with is actually a 1-1. I honestly don't but I am going to ask when I go pick them up cause its has me curious now.

 

[Wilhelmson]

https://www.slideshare.net/OlympusI...ki-edges-with-digital-microscopy?sf43244063=1

 

[Dwight]

The problem is when someone wants a .5 base angle but the ski has a 1. and that cant go down once done.

You go down with a base grind.

When you say you want a 2 degree edge, most shops will set the edge at 2 degrees. What the base edge has doesn't matter. If you are expecting a 1/3 that = 2 degrees, well then you need to tell them.

Unless you are racing, don't over think it.