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Polo

Putting on skis
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I'm skeptical. So if you don't like it you just go back to waxing?? Problem with that is I supposedly just saturated my base with your product since it miraculously saturates the whole base and lasts for the life of a ski......a life you say is 4 years on your site.....(bullshit, 4 years is nothing unless you ski 100+ days a year and even then if properly maintained and kept out of the rock gardens is nothing) I skied my K2 Merlins for shit.....almost a couple decades and skied them right up until they became the centerpiece of a headboard I made for my son out of our old skis. Anyway, so now I'm stuck with your shit in my base and I hate it.....will you buy me new skis? Of course not. What if we discover that after a few years our bases start to disintegrate because of your shit being applied to them? Will you buy us all new skis? No, we will have to file a class action lawsuit. Why does a company like DPS need to do a $35,000 kickstarter? That is a major red flag to me. DPS needs to raise $35,000? Seems to me they should have that much capital available to them easily for something they are so passionate about...... They claim 1.3M in annual revenue and employ 20 people but need to fund raise $35K?? That stinks to me. I don't like it.

Like many others here I am happy to have a strong coffee early in the morning or a cold beer and work on my skis. I'm passionate about skiing, therefore I am passionate about my skis. It really only takes me as long as I want it to take me to get my skis tuned. Liking to race I like optimal glide. I don't own a dozen waxes. I own a couple and then use a couple overlays that are more moisture specific. I keep a rub on/cork on wax/overlay with me and a pocket side tuner. I'll hit the bar for a beer or two and cork in some wax and run the tuner a couple quick pulls down the edges in the middle of a long day. I often ski bell to bell. I've a wax, a cork, a gummi, a scotchbrite pad, towel, and edge tuner in my bag. If not with me, they're in the trunk.

With all of that said.....I won't be buying it anytime soon.

Next time, try not to hold back quite so much and tell us how you really feel.... LOL :roflmao:
 

ScottB

Making fresh tracks
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Why does a company like DPS need to do a $35,000 kickstarter? That is a major red flag to me. DPS needs to raise $35,000? Seems to me they should have that much capital available to them easily for something they are so passionate about...... They claim 1.3M in annual revenue and employ 20 people but need to fund raise $35K?? That stinks to me. I don't like it.

HHMMMMMMM, Let's see here, 20 people employed, assume an average salary of 50k, times 20 equals 1.0M. That doesn't leave much left over to pay the bills for material and facilities. I am sure my math is off, but I think we have the answer to why they are doing a kick starter, especially since they are booking sales with the kickstarter effort. The proof will be in the pudding. I don't know much about DPS, but if this stuff doesn't work, they aren't doing their reputation any good. I trust they are smart enough to realize that.
 

PisteOff

Jeff
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HHMMMMMMM, Let's see here, 20 people employed, assume an average salary of 50k, times 20 equals 1.0M. That doesn't leave much left over to pay the bills for material and facilities. I am sure my math is off, but I think we have the answer to why they are doing a kick starter, especially since they are booking sales with the kickstarter effort. The proof will be in the pudding. I don't know much about DPS, but if this stuff doesn't work, they aren't doing their reputation any good. I trust they are smart enough to realize that.
Doing some deeper research I’ve found that last year was 3M in revenue. They’ve also been approved for govt. contract work. The parent company is Drake Powderworks. They hold 4 patents related to Ski manufacturing. Again, they need a 35K Kickstarter why?
 

Scotty I.

I only care about the graphics
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After reading some of these posts, I hope the guys at DPS are thick skinned. Keep in mind that they are Pugski sponsors. Just saying.
 

PisteOff

Jeff
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Maybe it's more to engage the early adopters than to get their money.
I suspect I’m being too hard on them. It begs a lot of questions. If it turns out to be the great item they claim it to be I will happily embrace it. I often adopt a devils advocate stance on things that strike me odd. I’m also very open minded. I certainly don’t want to do something to my skis I would regret. DPS makes, by all accounts, some great skis. I don’t own any but I have looked at the Alchemist 112 pretty seriously. I certainly don’t wish them ill. In fact I hope the opposite for them. There’s going to be a lot of skepticism about this product for quite sometime to come. It’s going to take me a few years of watching it before I start putting it on anything I own. One thing you can be sure of, it will be heavily vetted.
 

fatbob

Not responding
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After reading some of these posts, I hope the guys at DPS are thick skinned. Keep in mind that they are Pugski sponsors. Just saying.
Probably the worst reason for holding back on comments. If people are going to skew their comments to keep sponsors happy or worse if the forum were to adopt a moderation policy in this regard ( not saying it would) then Pugski becomes immensely less valuable.

I've got no problem with the kickstarter route - I think it's a valid marketing channel. I do have a bit of a problem with some of the claims if they aren't backed up with proper testing under an accepted scientific methodology.
 

Wade

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Doing some deeper research I’ve found that last year was 3M in revenue. They’ve also been approved for govt. contract work. The parent company is Drake Powderworks. They hold 4 patents related to Ski manufacturing. Again, they need a 35K Kickstarter why?

I’m not speaking to whether this product does what it says it does, but why wouldn’t they use kick starter for something like this?

By using kick starter they get:

- To evaluate whether or not there is really a market for the product.

- To understand how much they should produce in an initial production run, and avoid the risk of being stuck with a ton of product if it doesn’t sell as much as they thought. They also mitigate some of the risk of making too little if it is wildly successful.

- Payment up front to cover their material, manufacturing and development costs. This one is huge. Especially for a small manufacturing business, those costs can be a significant drain on cash flow while a product is in development.

- Free marketing.


It’s not like they’re using kick starter to solicit donations. From what I can see, they’re using it as a platform for selling an initial production run.

I don’t really understand why someone would have an issue with that.
 

Read Blinn

lakespapa
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I’m not speaking to whether this product does what it says it does, but why wouldn’t they use kick starter for something like this?

By using kick starter they get:

- To evaluate whether or not there is really a market for the product.

- To understand how much they should produce in an initial production run, and avoid the risk of being stuck with a ton of product if it doesn’t sell as much as they thought. They also mitigate some of the risk of making too little if it is wildly successful.

- Payment up front to cover their material, manufacturing and development costs. This one is huge. Especially for a small manufacturing business, those costs can be a significant drain on cash flow while a product is in development.

- Free marketing.


It’s not like they’re using kick starter to solicit donations. From what I can see, they’re using it as a platform for selling an initial production run.

I don’t really understand why someone would have an issue with that.

I agree — DPS is not K2, Rossignol, or Atomic, and $3M isn't getting-rich money for a manufacturer. It's staying-afloat money.

I may have other reservations about the product, but Kickstarter isn't one of them.
 

Philpug

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I’m not speaking to whether this product does what it says it does, but why wouldn’t they use kick starter for something like this?

By using kick starter they get:

- To evaluate whether or not there is really a market for the product.

- To understand how much they should produce in an initial production run, and avoid the risk of being stuck with a ton of product if it doesn’t sell as much as they thought. They also mitigate some of the risk of making too little if it is wildly successful.

- Payment up front to cover their material, manufacturing and development costs. This one is huge. Especially for a small manufacturing business, those costs can be a significant drain on cash flow while a product is in development.

- Free marketing.

It’s not like they’re using kick starter to solicit donations. From what I can see, they’re using it as a platform for selling an initial production run.

I don’t really understand why someone would have an issue with that.
It is also why some companies go on Shark Tank, it is a way to get their name out there with lttle or no risk.
 

Philpug

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I suspect I’m being too hard on them. It begs a lot of questions. If it turns out to be the great item they claim it to be I will happily embrace it. I often adopt a devils advocate stance on things that strike me odd. I’m also very open minded. I certainly don’t want to do something to my skis I would regret. DPS makes, by all accounts, some great skis. I don’t own any but I have looked at the Alchemist 112 pretty seriously. I certainly don’t wish them ill. In fact I hope the opposite for them. There’s going to be a lot of skepticism about this product for quite sometime to come. It’s going to take me a few years of watching it before I start putting it on anything I own. One thing you can be sure of, it will be heavily vetted.

The only think missing from many of your comments here is "Bless their heart..", the midwest backhanded complement ;). If you have to clarify that you are "open minded", well, chances are you are not. ;)

Yes, they are a sponsor here and yes we will give them our opinion and and we are not censoring anyones comments as you can see. I met the chemist and the guys behind this and if you have ever met Stephan you would know that he is taking this venture very seriously and is not putting his reputation on the line for a snake oil product, that is just not in his DNA.
 

neonorchid

Making fresh tracks
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:popcorn:

Ha, I finally get to use that icon!

On a side note ... I wonder how well this hydrophobic stuff would work for preventing snow from sticking to and clumping up on my Salomon X-Max hard plasticy boot sole plates? Banging with a pole or scraping with the basket and or on the binding doesn't work so well, especially after snow compacts further from failed attempts to click in. Could this product be the fix without requiring regular (frequent), reapplication?
 

PisteOff

Jeff
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The only think missing from many of your comments here is "Bless their heart..", the midwest backhanded complement ;). If you have to clarify that you are "open minded", well, chances are you are not. ;)

Yes, they are a sponsor here and yes we will give them our opinion and and we are not censoring anyones comments as you can see. I met the chemist and the guys behind this and if you have ever met Stephan you would know that he is taking this venture very seriously and is not putting his reputation on the line for a snake oil product, that is just not in his DNA.
No, I just realized after re-reading my comments this morning that some of my statements were poorly presented. For that I apologize to the group and will receive any criticism with grace..........
 

RuleMiHa

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No, I just realized after re-reading my comments this morning that some of my statements were poorly presented. For that I apologize to the group and will receive any criticism with grace..........
I've seen worse, and truthfully when someone feels that passionately about something that I disagree with, it forces me to reevaluate my position and make sure I haven't forgotten to consider something myself.
 

PisteOff

Jeff
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Because I truly am open minded @Philpug ;) (I have to push back just a little Phil....I'm messed up that way) :D

I offer this finding from the boys at Blister. It's a podcast with Stephan and his professor/engineer and some follow up discussion in the comments section.......This was just posted on Wednesday. Based on some of the feedback they're getting to their presentation they are going to revisit some of their statements, especially the base discoloration/grinding statements that had many, including myself, a little up in arms. They touch on that topic at length in the comments section.

http://blistergearreview.com/podcast/dps-phantom-the-end-of-ski-wax-ep-59
 

The Dad

reducing mountain town property values
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RE Kickstarter, @Wade gets it almost exactly right, IMHO. The exception is that the development costs were already incurred here, since the product is intended to ship next month.

I will acknowledge that I'm biased in favor of DPS based on past experience. I pre-purchased the Wailer 112RP before anyone outside their inner circle had been on the ski. They were everything DPS promised.
 

ScottB

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Has everyone read the Ski magazine article on this stuff that I posted a URL for? The guys at Ski Mag. skied three pairs of DPS skis, one waxed, one "nude", and one with Phantom. They gave their detailed impressions of each ski's performance. The Phantom wasn't perfect, but it was pretty close to the waxed ski. This wasn't an in depth scientific test, but it proves its not snake oil. (If you can believe what you read in Ski Mag)

I also factor in the University of Utah Professor(s) that are involved. Most colleges are not going to let their name get associated with some shady deal. It isn't a guarantee, but I have confidence that some real science was involved here.

In my opinion, this stuff has promise and one way to find out what it can really do is for people to use it. DPS compares it to an all temp wax. I use Dominator Zoom all temp wax and it has limitations. In really cold and really warm the stuff doesn't glide. It looks like the Phantom works in the warm, because it is very hydrophobic. I am curious if it will work in really cold temp's (<15F). They don't have any specific info on this that I can find. I will probably email them to see what they say.
 

David Chaus

Beyond Help
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This is from the comments section on Blister’s website about DPS utilizing Kickstarter.


  1. gabesalk November 1, 2017 Reply
    Hey Jon,
    Very cool conversation this product sounds awesome! After hearing their explanation of how it works I’m confident in their product and look forward to never waxing my skis again. I have one question, you mentioned with them that they are doing a Kickstarter to raise money for this. In your conversation did you ask them why they chose to use kickstarter and not ‘classic’ line of equity?

  2. 74b928a68f5091b5e88680e63bdc1aa0

    Stephan November 1, 2017 Reply
    To answer your question: we chose Kickstarter because it allows us to actually pre-sell the product itself at an introductory price. Also, we are a boutique ski builder, and don’t have direct access to snowboard world and the broader mass market. Phantom is for everyone, and Kickstarter is a great platform to get the word out.

    Cheers,
    Stephan Drake // DPS.


 

David Chaus

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As far as the product itself, I’ll reserve judgement. If it works, cool, I may have it applied at the factory should I buy DPS. Come to think of it, there will be a DPS demo day at the Utah Gathering, so we will probably have the chance to try for ourselves.
 

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